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Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
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Pat talks about Fitna the Movie, Geert Wilders' film about the Quran.
Mar 31, 2008 6:08 AM
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Fitna (English)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
Reaction from Iran
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSBLA83556420080328
Iran leads the world in executing children
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/20/iran16211.htm
Swiss foreign minister wears headscarf in Iran
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/19/news/Switzerland-Headscarf.php
Wife-beating in Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
Hamas bunny threatens to kill Danes over cartoons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0U2ce-LmA4
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
Reaction from Iran
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSBLA83556420080328
Iran leads the world in executing children
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/20/iran16211.htm
Swiss foreign minister wears headscarf in Iran
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/19/news/Switzerland-Headscarf.php
Wife-beating in Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
Hamas bunny threatens to kill Danes over cartoons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0U2ce-LmA4
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
First off, I don't agree with him when it comes to keeping Islam out of the western world. People coming from countries like Iraq and Iran seeking refuge here don't come here to practice their cruelties, they come here so they can be free.
Second, It wasn't the politicians who hyped this. It was the media who blew this up. The politicians merely tried to minimise the damage. With reason I think. In retrospect the film wasn't as extreme as we thought (Due to Wilders' poor presentation skills I think).
As for the film, apart from it being of bad quality Wilders is just kicking up dirt with this, as usual he's not coming up with any solutions and being the populist lowlife that he is.
Condell's point is that we grovel too much for the Islamic world, That is just not civil, I thought he saw us as a more moderate population. We still should mind any other population when we criticise them, even if we don't like them. And we know they are sensitive for this stuff.
Second, It wasn't the politicians who hyped this. It was the media who blew this up. The politicians merely tried to minimise the damage. With reason I think. In retrospect the film wasn't as extreme as we thought (Due to Wilders' poor presentation skills I think).
As for the film, apart from it being of bad quality Wilders is just kicking up dirt with this, as usual he's not coming up with any solutions and being the populist lowlife that he is.
Condell's point is that we grovel too much for the Islamic world, That is just not civil, I thought he saw us as a more moderate population. We still should mind any other population when we criticise them, even if we don't like them. And we know they are sensitive for this stuff.
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Don't you think Condell is equally torrid in his rants against Christianity?
But back to the topic at hand. He's got a valid point about how Muslims make demands of their adopted governments. While in a free society, there is the right to protest, there isn't the right to threaten the lives of those who offer differing viewpoints.
Pat isn't the lunatic fringe. My opinion, he's the sanest of the bunch.
But back to the topic at hand. He's got a valid point about how Muslims make demands of their adopted governments. While in a free society, there is the right to protest, there isn't the right to threaten the lives of those who offer differing viewpoints.
Pat isn't the lunatic fringe. My opinion, he's the sanest of the bunch.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Look at it this way.
If you and your friend are standing next to a bees nest and your friend starts poking in it with a stick, will you not do anything about it and even encourage your friend to keep poking because he has the right to do so? In the meantime you're complaining when the bees attack that they are too violent.
Or do you tell your friend that he shouldn't do that because he's creating problems for himself and you.
I'd say if the bees nest is a problem, deal with it because the most stupid thing you can do is make the problem bigger until we can only remove the bees nest with violent measures.
If you and your friend are standing next to a bees nest and your friend starts poking in it with a stick, will you not do anything about it and even encourage your friend to keep poking because he has the right to do so? In the meantime you're complaining when the bees attack that they are too violent.
Or do you tell your friend that he shouldn't do that because he's creating problems for himself and you.
I'd say if the bees nest is a problem, deal with it because the most stupid thing you can do is make the problem bigger until we can only remove the bees nest with violent measures.
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
""If you and your friend are standing next to a bees nest and your friend starts poking in it with a stick, will you not do anything about it and even encourage your friend to keep poking because he has the right to do so""
This is a very succinct comment which is totally indicative of the ignorance, and I would argue bigotry, of Islamic apologists.
Muslims, Arabs, Pashtoons, Pakistanis - those dark skinned aboriginees of third world countries - are believed to be nothing more than insects who can only respond to stimuli. They cannot be expected to hedge their passions with reason, nor respond peacefully and civilly to speech which merely offends their religious beliefs. They have no free will; they are "Noble Savages" who are to be placated and appeased - as if they are an endagered species, and offesive cartoons are infringing on their natural habitat.
Only white people and Jews can be expected to act like human beings, that's why we can have a seemingly infinite criticism and mockery of Christianity (even on this website!) and Judaism throughout western popular culture, as well as from the Muslim world.
Well, I call B.S. Mulsims are human beings, they have human rights and therefore the duty to respect others'. Violence in response to offensive speech is a deliberate and chosen act, it is immoral and criminal, and there is no excuse. Period.
55% of Muslims in the arab world believe that violence is an appropriate response to speech which offends their religion*. They all need to grow up, else their violence be met with ours. No excuses.
*http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/03/arab-poll-55-believe-offensive-words.html
This is a very succinct comment which is totally indicative of the ignorance, and I would argue bigotry, of Islamic apologists.
Muslims, Arabs, Pashtoons, Pakistanis - those dark skinned aboriginees of third world countries - are believed to be nothing more than insects who can only respond to stimuli. They cannot be expected to hedge their passions with reason, nor respond peacefully and civilly to speech which merely offends their religious beliefs. They have no free will; they are "Noble Savages" who are to be placated and appeased - as if they are an endagered species, and offesive cartoons are infringing on their natural habitat.
Only white people and Jews can be expected to act like human beings, that's why we can have a seemingly infinite criticism and mockery of Christianity (even on this website!) and Judaism throughout western popular culture, as well as from the Muslim world.
Well, I call B.S. Mulsims are human beings, they have human rights and therefore the duty to respect others'. Violence in response to offensive speech is a deliberate and chosen act, it is immoral and criminal, and there is no excuse. Period.
55% of Muslims in the arab world believe that violence is an appropriate response to speech which offends their religion*. They all need to grow up, else their violence be met with ours. No excuses.
*http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/03/arab-poll-55-believe-offensive-words.html
By: poonhound
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
You're saying they need to get their act together else we should just nuke them?
And that would be the "grown up" thing to do. When a problem rises and the solution is not easy or the way you like it you should just resort to violence to have things your way, or in this case genocide.
And that would be the "grown up" thing to do. When a problem rises and the solution is not easy or the way you like it you should just resort to violence to have things your way, or in this case genocide.
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
What kind of ignorant nonsense is that? How is standing firm behind prinicples of free speech, and protecting people's right to criticise religion eqivalent to nuking people?
Many Dutch MP's are trying to get the film banned. That is wrong. The correct solution is simply to allow Wilders to say what he wants and when he wants to say it.
Muslims throughout the world wan't to have Wilders killed. That is also wrong. The correct solution is to persecute anyone who threatens the life of Mr. Wilders to the fullest extent of the law.
""When a problem rises and the solution is not easy or the way you like it you should just resort to violence to have things your way, or in this case genocide. ""
You have just described the attitude of Islamic extremists for whom you advocate appeasement, not my attitude at all.
Many Dutch MP's are trying to get the film banned. That is wrong. The correct solution is simply to allow Wilders to say what he wants and when he wants to say it.
Muslims throughout the world wan't to have Wilders killed. That is also wrong. The correct solution is to persecute anyone who threatens the life of Mr. Wilders to the fullest extent of the law.
""When a problem rises and the solution is not easy or the way you like it you should just resort to violence to have things your way, or in this case genocide. ""
You have just described the attitude of Islamic extremists for whom you advocate appeasement, not my attitude at all.
By: poonhound
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
"They all need to grow up, else their violence be met with ours. No excuses."
That is not an attitude that will work here. We have to be sensible about this and not be poking the beehive with a stick.
Protecting Wilders is apart from costly (something I do not want spend my tax money on) not useful, if we protect him to that extent we only encourage him to polarise the population even more, which is something we really do not need.
Of course we shouldn't be giving way much to the Muslims but the Dutch MPs and me included know that this is not the way of solving the issue.
That is not an attitude that will work here. We have to be sensible about this and not be poking the beehive with a stick.
Protecting Wilders is apart from costly (something I do not want spend my tax money on) not useful, if we protect him to that extent we only encourage him to polarise the population even more, which is something we really do not need.
Of course we shouldn't be giving way much to the Muslims but the Dutch MPs and me included know that this is not the way of solving the issue.
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Only white people and Jews can be expected to act like human beings?
Jaxon, I urge you to consider development of a killfile. I have just documented a perfect reason for one.
Jaxon, I urge you to consider development of a killfile. I have just documented a perfect reason for one.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Okay, so I admit that Condell is being antagonistic. I suppose I would take offense if he went off on such a tilt against atheism.
Can't I just stay at a safe distance while my friend is whacking at the beehive?
Can't I just stay at a safe distance while my friend is whacking at the beehive?
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Who the hell lets angry bees set up shop on their property to begin with?
By: DIGBY67
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
I would let my friend jab the bees nest. If hes dumb enough to jab bees nests, then he needs to learn his lesson the hard way.
By: meat
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Give it a rest Condell!
You can't tar every member of a religion with the same brush. Yeah, pretty much all religions have a skeleton in it's closet that they'd rather not talk about. Mormon's have the Hebrews in america, Scientologists have Xenu, Catholicism has the ascension of the Virgin Mary, Jehovah's Witnesses have the end of the world penciled in for any day now, and so on. Islam just happens to have God sanctioned genocide. I'd say, as silly as their beliefs might be, most of those people are good people.
Some atheists can be just as bad as some theists, the only difference is that atheists don't have god to hide their dickheadedness behind, and luckily, extremist atheists are a rare occurrence.
You can't tar every member of a religion with the same brush. Yeah, pretty much all religions have a skeleton in it's closet that they'd rather not talk about. Mormon's have the Hebrews in america, Scientologists have Xenu, Catholicism has the ascension of the Virgin Mary, Jehovah's Witnesses have the end of the world penciled in for any day now, and so on. Islam just happens to have God sanctioned genocide. I'd say, as silly as their beliefs might be, most of those people are good people.
Some atheists can be just as bad as some theists, the only difference is that atheists don't have god to hide their dickheadedness behind, and luckily, extremist atheists are a rare occurrence.
By: SaladDays
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Wierd comment. I'm assuming you are being sarcastic, but since its not really funny, I'm not so sure.
Are you seriously equating the belief in the ascension of Mary, - or a galactic overlord, or a lost tribe of Israel in America - with "God sanctioned genocide"?
Is the desire to wipe out an entire race of people, or subjugate the world under an arcane, pre-medeival set of laws, merely "dickheadedness?"
Are you seriously equating the belief in the ascension of Mary, - or a galactic overlord, or a lost tribe of Israel in America - with "God sanctioned genocide"?
Is the desire to wipe out an entire race of people, or subjugate the world under an arcane, pre-medeival set of laws, merely "dickheadedness?"
By: poonhound
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
No I'm not being sarcastic and yes I am equating the belief in the ascension of Mary, - or a galactic overlord, or a lost tribe of Israel in America - with "God sanctioned genocide". By rights practicing Jews everywhere should be slaughter hundreds of animals a year, stoning homosexuals and slaying anyone they don't like. But they've found a way around it, even hasidic jews. Stoning gays in not necessary to believe in god.
My point is that many would be good people, albeit it slightly gullible, are being taken advantage of by evil religious leaders with a horrific agenda which has nothing to do with God.
I'm not religious, people have the right to practice any religion they please, I only wish all religious people could be as moderate as the majority. Before you start, the people in Fitna do not represent the majority, if you believe they do, you're just one step away from being as hateful as them.
My point is that many would be good people, albeit it slightly gullible, are being taken advantage of by evil religious leaders with a horrific agenda which has nothing to do with God.
I'm not religious, people have the right to practice any religion they please, I only wish all religious people could be as moderate as the majority. Before you start, the people in Fitna do not represent the majority, if you believe they do, you're just one step away from being as hateful as them.
By: SaladDays
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Wow. Killing an entire race of people is as innocuous as simply believing one woman 2000 years ago went up to heaven.
I doubt that you concern yourself with the fact that there are Catholics all around you, so that means you wouldn't be concerned if 5 million people were murdered in a genocide, eh? ho-hum. That is what is meant by moral equivalence.
I doubt that you concern yourself with the fact that there are Catholics all around you, so that means you wouldn't be concerned if 5 million people were murdered in a genocide, eh? ho-hum. That is what is meant by moral equivalence.
By: poonhound
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
I think you've missed my point. Yahweh told the nation is Israel to eradicate every body who would not convert in Canaan. Since there are people in Israel and Palestine is not big on Judaism, jews don't tend to take that god given mandate seriously any longer.
Aggressive off shoots of any sort, no matter how fervent their motives are, tend to implode on themselves. I think it's only a matter of time before militant Islam dissipates.
Aggressive off shoots of any sort, no matter how fervent their motives are, tend to implode on themselves. I think it's only a matter of time before militant Islam dissipates.
By: SaladDays
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
hopefully you are right. But remember,
1)The stories of the old testament are chronicles of ancient events, isolated to a particular tribe and location, while the Koran is a series of philosophical and civil mandates spoken in the present tense. It is taught to be a book written before time on golden tablets in heaven, relevant to all times and places. Mohammad himself prophesised that it was the duty of Muslims to invade foreign lands, wage war against the Jews, until "All religion of the world is for Allah"
2) The arcane laws of ancient Israel did not "dissipate." The entire Hebrew nation was destroyed by the romans, the temple burned, and the surviving Jews had to live as immigrant minorities in foreign lands. It was only then that rabbinical schools were formed to find out if being a Jew was still relevant without a nation, and decided the covenant with God extended beyond arbitrary civil laws, else Judaism would cease to exist.
Does the cube at Mecca need to be destroyed and Muslim sovereignty need to end in order for the current tyrannical orthodoxy to shift into moderation? I hope not, but if you are going to compare Islam to Judaism, just keep that in mind.
1)The stories of the old testament are chronicles of ancient events, isolated to a particular tribe and location, while the Koran is a series of philosophical and civil mandates spoken in the present tense. It is taught to be a book written before time on golden tablets in heaven, relevant to all times and places. Mohammad himself prophesised that it was the duty of Muslims to invade foreign lands, wage war against the Jews, until "All religion of the world is for Allah"
2) The arcane laws of ancient Israel did not "dissipate." The entire Hebrew nation was destroyed by the romans, the temple burned, and the surviving Jews had to live as immigrant minorities in foreign lands. It was only then that rabbinical schools were formed to find out if being a Jew was still relevant without a nation, and decided the covenant with God extended beyond arbitrary civil laws, else Judaism would cease to exist.
Does the cube at Mecca need to be destroyed and Muslim sovereignty need to end in order for the current tyrannical orthodoxy to shift into moderation? I hope not, but if you are going to compare Islam to Judaism, just keep that in mind.
By: poonhound
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Good points, but you also have to consider that the people who were writing the Talmud, Bible and Koran probably weren't thinking thousands of years into the future.
When most europeans were knocking stones together and dying of the plague, Muslims were busy inventing geometry. It's not islam that stopped them dying or made them smarter, but it was a fundamental view of islam that crept back into their society that made them stupid.
When most europeans were knocking stones together and dying of the plague, Muslims were busy inventing geometry. It's not islam that stopped them dying or made them smarter, but it was a fundamental view of islam that crept back into their society that made them stupid.
By: SaladDays
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
fitna smacked of pre-war antisemitic rhetoric turned against islam, today's alle juden raus.
if pat wants to defend a hateful, fear-mongering, bigoted powerpoint presentation like fitna, then it's just another reason why he should be shunned and not shown.
specific to this video, pat says that this is all part of "a cynical campaign of intimidation by the islamic world to force unwanted islamic values into western society." replace islamic with jewish, with ANY religion and there you have it. complete bigotry.
i used to think that when he says these things he means only to refer to the violent, extremist factions that deserve to be criticized. but he means what he says, as he repeats it over and again. he is partaking in an active deception, oscillating between making acceptable statements (denouncing violent extremism) and unacceptable ones (gross generalizations about muslims as a people), and repeating the deception so often that people are starting to believe it; e.g. many jews are business owners and money-lenders + the jews are responsible for the depression.
way to go, mr. goebbels.
if pat wants to defend a hateful, fear-mongering, bigoted powerpoint presentation like fitna, then it's just another reason why he should be shunned and not shown.
specific to this video, pat says that this is all part of "a cynical campaign of intimidation by the islamic world to force unwanted islamic values into western society." replace islamic with jewish, with ANY religion and there you have it. complete bigotry.
i used to think that when he says these things he means only to refer to the violent, extremist factions that deserve to be criticized. but he means what he says, as he repeats it over and again. he is partaking in an active deception, oscillating between making acceptable statements (denouncing violent extremism) and unacceptable ones (gross generalizations about muslims as a people), and repeating the deception so often that people are starting to believe it; e.g. many jews are business owners and money-lenders + the jews are responsible for the depression.
way to go, mr. goebbels.
By: bobolifoo
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
It seems like you totally missed the point he was making.
Pat wasn't defending fitna itself, nor the ideas represented in the movie. He was defending the right to free speech of the film makers and denouncing those who would remove that right for the sake of appeasement.
There are a lot of ignorant, self-serving, rascist, sexist, assholes out there in the world. I don't agree with their views and, given the chance, I would express my own opinion by speaking out against them. But I would never try to silence them. Many Islamic clerics and regimes would and do.
Are all Muslims violent, murderous, sexist terrorists? Of course not - especially considering those who have settled in the West and live in tolerance. But that is not the case in many Islamic regimes in the Middle East.
Pat wasn't defending fitna itself, nor the ideas represented in the movie. He was defending the right to free speech of the film makers and denouncing those who would remove that right for the sake of appeasement.
There are a lot of ignorant, self-serving, rascist, sexist, assholes out there in the world. I don't agree with their views and, given the chance, I would express my own opinion by speaking out against them. But I would never try to silence them. Many Islamic clerics and regimes would and do.
Are all Muslims violent, murderous, sexist terrorists? Of course not - especially considering those who have settled in the West and live in tolerance. But that is not the case in many Islamic regimes in the Middle East.
By: chronomitch
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Hey, what you said was offensive. Not every person who subscribed to National Socialism enacted violence upon the Jews. Therefore you should not criticize National Socialism as a philosophy, or associate it with violence against Jews.
By: poonhound
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
Let me summarize: there is no right not to be offended. Let me excercise this right: Muslims who hate western civilization are stupid. Muhammed was a retard. The entire Muslim religion is stupid. I'm holding in my hand right now a picture i made of Muhammed. In fact, I think I'll frame it and hang it on the wall. Eat it.
By: faxis2k
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
I do think there is a problem with the way 'some' Islamic followers do act. There have been domestic abuse issues of Islamic men beating on European women and also treating them very poorly because they feel those women deserve it for not being pure and tempting them. There are crimes done where because SOME Islamic people disagree with something, they start riots or do threaten violence. It is true. We should stop denying it. Not all people who follow Islam are bad but certainly some are making it very hard to allow them to integrate when they do not want to. They could be fixing up their own homes instead of running to other people's and then trying to force the other people to do what they want. I don't like any religion really but the only people I will not like are those that use the religion to benefit them, abuse others and treat others like crap while trying to play some martyr card so others back off.
By: Zarthus
Re: Pat Condell: The Religion of Fear
"i know anyone who follows the news would equate islam with violence; i know i certainly do..."
is this a satire or what?
is this a satire or what?
By: bobolifoo
