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The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
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On the 30th of September 2007, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens sat down for a first-of-its-kind, unmoderated 2-hour discussion, convened by RDFRS and filmed by Josh Timonen.
All four authors have recently received a large amount of media attention for their writings against religion - some positive, and some negative. In this conversation the group trades stories of the public’s reaction to their recent books, their unexpected successes, criticisms and common misrepresentations. They discuss the tough questions about religion that face to world today, and propose new strategies for going forward.
Authors' Recommended Books: The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins , Breaking the Spell by Daniel C. Dennett, Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, The End of Faith by Sam, Harris God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.
All four authors have recently received a large amount of media attention for their writings against religion - some positive, and some negative. In this conversation the group trades stories of the public’s reaction to their recent books, their unexpected successes, criticisms and common misrepresentations. They discuss the tough questions about religion that face to world today, and propose new strategies for going forward.
Authors' Recommended Books: The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins , Breaking the Spell by Daniel C. Dennett, Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, The End of Faith by Sam, Harris God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens.
Dec 16, 2007 1:28 PM
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
I'm only about 1/3 of the way through pt 1, but I think I've already heard the best line: "..we can't hope to argue with a mentality of this kind".
Only two of these guys are familiar to me (ty M&C) yet, I like what all of them have to say. I agree, religion isn't just stupid and ridiculous (and annoying) but also very dangerous. It is only holding humanity back.
I'm glad that intelligent people, like these four men, are out there in the public eye. The traumatized Catholic school boy in me hopes they give religion a good healthy beating.
Thank you to the person who presented this.
Only two of these guys are familiar to me (ty M&C) yet, I like what all of them have to say. I agree, religion isn't just stupid and ridiculous (and annoying) but also very dangerous. It is only holding humanity back.
I'm glad that intelligent people, like these four men, are out there in the public eye. The traumatized Catholic school boy in me hopes they give religion a good healthy beating.
Thank you to the person who presented this.
By: EViLMinD
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
I'll try to play devil's advocate here and support religion (oh the irony)
Religion teaches the ignorant masses how to live a happy life, to be nice to each other and cooperate. I say ignorant masses because they can't realize on their own the logical reasoning behind not being a deusch-bag, prostitute or murderer.
Now the problem with religion today is that it has been corrupted by people who essentialy exploit the ignorant masses. Pre Reformation Catholicism, Scientology, etc. The ideal religion doesn't require you to pay it or go to war for it, or hate anyone who isn't your religion. The only religion I know, personaly, that follows those rules is Mormonism. Granted it has one of the dumbest stories I have ever heard, but that means that only the ignorant masses would follow it.
Religion teaches the ignorant masses how to live a happy life, to be nice to each other and cooperate. I say ignorant masses because they can't realize on their own the logical reasoning behind not being a deusch-bag, prostitute or murderer.
Now the problem with religion today is that it has been corrupted by people who essentialy exploit the ignorant masses. Pre Reformation Catholicism, Scientology, etc. The ideal religion doesn't require you to pay it or go to war for it, or hate anyone who isn't your religion. The only religion I know, personaly, that follows those rules is Mormonism. Granted it has one of the dumbest stories I have ever heard, but that means that only the ignorant masses would follow it.
By: cheezsteak
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
"Now the problem with religion today is..."
I think it was spoiled from the beginning, man. What we see in this age is nothing new. Power and social control have ALWAYS been at the core of this kind of con game.
I'm bored of hearing religious folk claim that, without faith, we'd all descend into moral chaos, with no bench mark for right and wrong. What a dumbass thing to believe. Mankind does not need religious dogma to be respectful to one another. I certainly know I don't.
Sure, magical thinking has its place in world. It can help us comprehend the infinite unknown. Some people just take it WAY too far. They use it as a weapon; an excuse to be intolerant and, generally, close-minded.
I think it was spoiled from the beginning, man. What we see in this age is nothing new. Power and social control have ALWAYS been at the core of this kind of con game.
I'm bored of hearing religious folk claim that, without faith, we'd all descend into moral chaos, with no bench mark for right and wrong. What a dumbass thing to believe. Mankind does not need religious dogma to be respectful to one another. I certainly know I don't.
Sure, magical thinking has its place in world. It can help us comprehend the infinite unknown. Some people just take it WAY too far. They use it as a weapon; an excuse to be intolerant and, generally, close-minded.
By: EViLMinD
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
It was fucked up from the begining. but we don't care about that now. What we care about is what religion is doing to society today.
I don't know if there would be any difference in the moral standards of humanity if there was no religion. Thats just the best argument that I can come up with for them. (Remember, I was playing devil's advocate.) Its a really uncertain concept. Frankly I think that the dumbest would be less moral without religion but there definatley would be no amoral chaos.
I don't know if there would be any difference in the moral standards of humanity if there was no religion. Thats just the best argument that I can come up with for them. (Remember, I was playing devil's advocate.) Its a really uncertain concept. Frankly I think that the dumbest would be less moral without religion but there definatley would be no amoral chaos.
By: cheezsteak
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
Wait... Did Hitchens say that mother Tereasa was an atheist? Where can I get conformation on this?
By: cheezsteak
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
Mother Theresa's diaries came out in published form a few months ago, and in her writings, she did indeed express what Hitchens mentioned. In fact, this particular point (having lost her faith) was all over the news, all you have to do is Google "Mother Theresa" and "diaries", and there should be a TON of links.
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
I agree with most of what they say but this seems a bit pointless. They are talking about how they aren't treated fairly by those that think their books aren't treating their view fairly. ?
By: Boglin
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
Yeah, let's listen to four like-minded guys sit around and agree with each other these guys are arrogant: they use disproving religion as the sole basis for their argument that a higher power doesn't exist. Can't spirituality exist outside the confines of religion? I find organized religion as distasteful as the next guy, but is that reason enough to abandon all belief in divinity?
By: EmanResu
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
I don't get the impression that they are telling people to abandon "ALL belief in divinity". Sure, each one of them may believe their is no divine entity but that isn't their expectation for everyone else. People can believe whatever they want about the great unknown, so long as they aren't too fixed in those ideas. What any good atheist wants is for people to accept that they could be wrong; and, more importantly, to not justify destructive behavior because of what a religious text/leader claims. Does that not seem fair?
Also, I disagree with you about the merits of grouping like-minded people. Sometimes it is refreshing to hear a conversation with these men that doesn't have some angry nutjob attacking them.
Yes, I agree that Hitchens can be an arrogant know-it-all. He still makes great points, though. That, and, I think I'd be disinterested in sugar coating some statements to certain types of people. It would get frustrating and...well...frankness can be a virtue.
Also, I disagree with you about the merits of grouping like-minded people. Sometimes it is refreshing to hear a conversation with these men that doesn't have some angry nutjob attacking them.
Yes, I agree that Hitchens can be an arrogant know-it-all. He still makes great points, though. That, and, I think I'd be disinterested in sugar coating some statements to certain types of people. It would get frustrating and...well...frankness can be a virtue.
By: EViLMinD
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
Good points! I guess I make a big distinction between Atheists and Agnostics, but maybe that's not one that many people make... Do people use the word "Agnostic" anymore?
By: EmanResu
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
My guess is that most folks don't know the difference between the two. They probably don't put much focus on the distinction. Damn, even I'm a little muddled over the difference.
My view is that this world is the only one to count on. But, I sure fucking hope there is more afterward. So far, no one has given me a good reason to think otherwise, and I'm ok with that. Too busy living my life to care, I suppose.
My view is that this world is the only one to count on. But, I sure fucking hope there is more afterward. So far, no one has given me a good reason to think otherwise, and I'm ok with that. Too busy living my life to care, I suppose.
By: EViLMinD
Re: The Four Horsemen: Pt 1
LOL @ Chris Hitchens smoking and drinking scotch throughout.
By: dave.dh
