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Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
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This guy interviews several protestors in Libertyville, IL who are for making abortion illegal, and asks them what they believe an appropriate penalty would be for someone who breaks that law.
It would seem that they had not thought that far ahead.
It would seem that they had not thought that far ahead.
Jul 31, 2007 9:03 AM
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
the interviewer was really fishing for an answer he wanted to hear and didnt seem to understand the issue. if abortions are made illegal it would mean doctors wouldnt be able to perform them and would be the ones most risking punishment. it seemed as though he was trying desparetly to get a crazy response from the people and even started to seem really frustrated when he failed to trick them.
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
To me it was a demonstration of how poorly thought out these peoples actions are. One after the other, they all drew a blank. How come none of them could say what you said right there? Were ALL of them too nervous on camera?
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
The video was obviously edited to take out good answers. I am sure somebody answered like they had a brain.
By: mommamichele
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
it seems to me that the focus of pro life people is to stop the killing of fetuses rather than punish people who get abortions. i also kind of understand why they were nervous on camera. the interviewer didnt hide his intent very well.
read this while you can since it seems someone's found comment scoring and has been going a little crazy with it the past few days. i dont really see how my previous comment or the comment by mommamichele should be rated below threshold for simply politely stating opinions about the video.
read this while you can since it seems someone's found comment scoring and has been going a little crazy with it the past few days. i dont really see how my previous comment or the comment by mommamichele should be rated below threshold for simply politely stating opinions about the video.
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
Comment scoring on milkandcookies needs to be improved or killed, I dont like how it works now.
The point is worth making that if you care enough about something to protest for it, you should at least consider the situation beyond some kind of moral absolute.
The point is worth making that if you care enough about something to protest for it, you should at least consider the situation beyond some kind of moral absolute.
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
That's a fair point, but the question of punishment for women receiving abortions is critical for a more subtle reason.
If abortion law is changed such that it is punishable for a doctor or other practitioner to provide an abortion but not for a woman to receive an abortion, then surely the most likely outcome will be a marked increase in attempts at self-provided abortion, or back-alley abortions. Such abortions would be extremely dangerous and very often unsuccessful. This is an outcome that, I hope, nobody wants.
If anti-choice advocates are serious about using government to end abortion, they need to start thinking about punishments for women who receive them. Given the deep anxiety and panic that often accompany the decision to abort, indeed even in life-threatening ways when safer abortion is not possible, the punishment to women would have to be severe enough and the likelihood of getting caught high enough that women would prefer to have the baby, despite whatever reasons they might have for aborting, rather than risk prosecution. The cruelty of such punishment (given that women are likely already traumatized by the procedure) and the invasion of privacy necessary to discover illegal abortions should be enough to make almost all anti-choice activists think twice about advocating criminalization. It seems from this video that they haven't yet thought once.
All of that being said, it seems that the goal of these particular activists is not actually to criminalize abortion but rather to express popular disapproval of the practice in the hopes of changing the culture around abortion so that women will voluntarily choose not to abort. This is certainly the only ethical way to reduce the number of abortions. The inerviewer here is exploiting their inability to articulate this distinction.
If abortion law is changed such that it is punishable for a doctor or other practitioner to provide an abortion but not for a woman to receive an abortion, then surely the most likely outcome will be a marked increase in attempts at self-provided abortion, or back-alley abortions. Such abortions would be extremely dangerous and very often unsuccessful. This is an outcome that, I hope, nobody wants.
If anti-choice advocates are serious about using government to end abortion, they need to start thinking about punishments for women who receive them. Given the deep anxiety and panic that often accompany the decision to abort, indeed even in life-threatening ways when safer abortion is not possible, the punishment to women would have to be severe enough and the likelihood of getting caught high enough that women would prefer to have the baby, despite whatever reasons they might have for aborting, rather than risk prosecution. The cruelty of such punishment (given that women are likely already traumatized by the procedure) and the invasion of privacy necessary to discover illegal abortions should be enough to make almost all anti-choice activists think twice about advocating criminalization. It seems from this video that they haven't yet thought once.
All of that being said, it seems that the goal of these particular activists is not actually to criminalize abortion but rather to express popular disapproval of the practice in the hopes of changing the culture around abortion so that women will voluntarily choose not to abort. This is certainly the only ethical way to reduce the number of abortions. The inerviewer here is exploiting their inability to articulate this distinction.
By: npyati
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
"The interviewer here is exploiting their inability to articulate this distinction."
No, the interviewer is asking people who - for years - have publicly protested to tell others what their views are on the subject... and they are unable to answer a simple, yet blatantly obvious question that they haven't even considered. Asking that question is most certainly not an act of exploiting these protesters. It just illustrates how little thought they've actually given to the subject.
If I stand in public with a sign and a group of like-minded individuals to make a stand and protest something that I strongly believe is wrong, I damn well better be prepared to tell people WHY I'm there, WHY I'm protesting and WHY it's so important, from all angles. If I can't, then I'm just playing the role of ignorant cannon-fodder, exploited by the cause I'm attempting to stand with. "Don't eat cheese!!" Um, why not? "I don't know - it's just wrong!"
It's not up to the interviewer, or for that matter any person asking them questions, to be sure they only ask those that are able to articulate their position. If one can't thoroughly explain their stance, but stand up anyway, then they invite things like this video to illustrate their ignorance.
But then, god "called" at least one of them (and I suspect the rest as well) to be there, so who needs logic when you have blind faith instead?
No, the interviewer is asking people who - for years - have publicly protested to tell others what their views are on the subject... and they are unable to answer a simple, yet blatantly obvious question that they haven't even considered. Asking that question is most certainly not an act of exploiting these protesters. It just illustrates how little thought they've actually given to the subject.
If I stand in public with a sign and a group of like-minded individuals to make a stand and protest something that I strongly believe is wrong, I damn well better be prepared to tell people WHY I'm there, WHY I'm protesting and WHY it's so important, from all angles. If I can't, then I'm just playing the role of ignorant cannon-fodder, exploited by the cause I'm attempting to stand with. "Don't eat cheese!!" Um, why not? "I don't know - it's just wrong!"
It's not up to the interviewer, or for that matter any person asking them questions, to be sure they only ask those that are able to articulate their position. If one can't thoroughly explain their stance, but stand up anyway, then they invite things like this video to illustrate their ignorance.
But then, god "called" at least one of them (and I suspect the rest as well) to be there, so who needs logic when you have blind faith instead?
By: decavolt
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
he didnt ask about their stance on abortion or why they think it's wrong he asked what they think the punishment should be for people who would get abortions illegally. they arent out there calling for the punishment of people who get abortions, they're out there because they want to, in their minds, save a life.
and if you dont understand what that woman meant when she said god called her to be there then dont question it. of course, the interviewer also tried to use that statement to make her sound crazy.
though i dont agree with any of what you just said i'm leaving the little (-) next to 'score' alone. some people should realize that there are differing opinions out there.
and if you dont understand what that woman meant when she said god called her to be there then dont question it. of course, the interviewer also tried to use that statement to make her sound crazy.
though i dont agree with any of what you just said i'm leaving the little (-) next to 'score' alone. some people should realize that there are differing opinions out there.
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
"i'm leaving the little (-) next to 'score' alone. some people should realize that there are differing opinions out there."
How very noble of you. :P
The interviewer's question is a perfectly legitimate and, as I said, obvious one that is a part of their stance on the subject whether they realize it or not. They should be prepared to answer it. If they aren't... then encounters like we see in this video are the result and should be expected.
No one was "exploited."
I understand perfectly what the woman meant when she said "god called me to be here." I didn't question it, I used sarcasm to illustrate it's total lack of reason and logic. And yes, her statement made her sound crazy all on it's own, even if the interviewer hadn't said another word.
How very noble of you. :P
The interviewer's question is a perfectly legitimate and, as I said, obvious one that is a part of their stance on the subject whether they realize it or not. They should be prepared to answer it. If they aren't... then encounters like we see in this video are the result and should be expected.
No one was "exploited."
I understand perfectly what the woman meant when she said "god called me to be here." I didn't question it, I used sarcasm to illustrate it's total lack of reason and logic. And yes, her statement made her sound crazy all on it's own, even if the interviewer hadn't said another word.
By: decavolt
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
never voicing an opinion again. guess i'll just start playing with buttons too
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
Don't worry raubhi, some of us out there recognize a finally-crafted and well thought out statement when we read it.
By: MisterJingo
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
You're right. I guess I was sympathetic to the protesters because they seemed caught unawares, but that's not an excuse. If they want people to hear their message, they should be able to answer at least the most basic questions about it.
By: npyati
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
All you have to do is mention abortion and people go all psychotic. Is killing skin cells illegal? Why should killing blastocysts be illegal.
By: faxis2k
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
I giggle when I read the above comments that stated that this was OBVIOUSLY edited to make these people look DUMB.
Well, all you really prove is that you OBVIOUSLY never sat down with some of these people in "real life". No, they really are that dumb. The few that would have already thought about this question would always have on response which is the standard punishment given out by conservative nuts for everything from stealing, to drug abuse, to rape..."DEATH PENALTY!" It's the wonder punishment! Statistics prove that every country that hands out the death penalty liberally has lower crime rates...right? HA!
The "Justice for All" group would come to my college campus every year and put up 20 foot posters of dead fetuses and other nonsense and sit around and scream and rant for a week straight. My experiences then seemed to have simulated that presented in this clip.
I also like to point out what would happen when a mother is forced to have a baby she doesn't want and won't take care of. Well, the pro-life people certainly won't do anything about it then! That'd cost tax dollars or some sort of civic responsibility! They care more about life that isn't life yet than real human beings.
Well, all you really prove is that you OBVIOUSLY never sat down with some of these people in "real life". No, they really are that dumb. The few that would have already thought about this question would always have on response which is the standard punishment given out by conservative nuts for everything from stealing, to drug abuse, to rape..."DEATH PENALTY!" It's the wonder punishment! Statistics prove that every country that hands out the death penalty liberally has lower crime rates...right? HA!
The "Justice for All" group would come to my college campus every year and put up 20 foot posters of dead fetuses and other nonsense and sit around and scream and rant for a week straight. My experiences then seemed to have simulated that presented in this clip.
I also like to point out what would happen when a mother is forced to have a baby she doesn't want and won't take care of. Well, the pro-life people certainly won't do anything about it then! That'd cost tax dollars or some sort of civic responsibility! They care more about life that isn't life yet than real human beings.
By: McCorvic
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
No matter how many comments we see here (or don't due to scoring), we're not going to make a dent in what others believe. Is it fair to conclude as much?
I'm for a spirited debate as much as anyone but can anyone share with me the positive results of turning this into a forum?
That said, I am pro-choice and the interviewer was as biased as Michael Moore in asking his pointed questions. IOW, I may agree with his message but not his tactics.
I'm for a spirited debate as much as anyone but can anyone share with me the positive results of turning this into a forum?
That said, I am pro-choice and the interviewer was as biased as Michael Moore in asking his pointed questions. IOW, I may agree with his message but not his tactics.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
Whats that old saying about arguing on the internet?
... but the comments are a place for discussion, if not what are they? These types of links spawn these types of conversations. Comedy links usually turn into little joke threads.
... but the comments are a place for discussion, if not what are they? These types of links spawn these types of conversations. Comedy links usually turn into little joke threads.
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
Is that the saying that the pig farmers in Iowa use? You know, "It never pays to teach a pig to sing. They can't carry a tune. And it annoys the porker anyway."
(and I reset my threshold so that I see all comments no matter how many times some censor wannabe clicks)
(and I reset my threshold so that I see all comments no matter how many times some censor wannabe clicks)
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
"No matter how many comments we see here (or don't due to scoring), we're not going to make a dent in what others believe. Is it fair to conclude as much?"
It seems that way to me most of the time, but people's minds on important issues have always been changed, sometimes by something as unexpected as a post in an internet forum.
Anyway, it may be difficult to change the minds of some, but there are often plenty of people who haven't yet made up their mind (especially on an issue like abortion), and witnessing a debate can help them do so.
It seems that way to me most of the time, but people's minds on important issues have always been changed, sometimes by something as unexpected as a post in an internet forum.
Anyway, it may be difficult to change the minds of some, but there are often plenty of people who haven't yet made up their mind (especially on an issue like abortion), and witnessing a debate can help them do so.
By: npyati
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
This is a pretty touchy subject we have going here. I am pro-choice and the reason for that being, when in high school there was a debate on this issue in my R.E. class. A girl pointed out that, what if the woman was raped and got pregnant ? This is DEFINATELY a baby she didn't want, and i couldn't begin to fathom what a woman would go through in such a terrible situation. Would she really want to have this child knowing how it came to be, perhaps having constant resentment for that child ? What also was pointed out is the nature vs norture thing, Would this child (if born) have the potential to become a rapist. It doesn't seem to me that these pro-lifers have thought of things like this. Or perhaps this may have come up, as the girl that was wearing the cap mentioned that "it depends on the situation". But i'm just speculating here
By: D3NIS
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
What part of "seperation of church and state" don't these people understand.
Just because people have different religious beliefs than you, you want to make something illegal so they can't do it.
The Christians are at it again. noobs
Just because people have different religious beliefs than you, you want to make something illegal so they can't do it.
The Christians are at it again. noobs
By: bleachkillsaids
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
This is what it is: we don't make laws because of right and wrong. We make laws that best serve the needs of society. We can change these laws if and when we need to.
That's what these people don't get.
Abortion is wrong. It's horrible. Everyone knows that. No one would ever wish it on anyone.
It also needs to be legal. Why? Because we tried making it illegal for years. Women had abortions anyway. Some got sick, some died, some ended up never being able to have children at all.
It didn't work, so we changed the law.
It doesn't make abortion right, or "sanction" it somehow. We don't need a government that makes moral decisions for us. That's for us to do.
Also, since when is it my business what women decide to do with their bodies? Leave it up to them and they'll do the right thing. Not right for me, or right for everyone, but what's right for them. That freedom is why we have a society to begin with.
A sidenote: I think it's good that this guy made those people think about what they were picketing for, I never realized that those people were doing this so blindly. I just assumed they all wanted to throw those women in the slammer.
That's what these people don't get.
Abortion is wrong. It's horrible. Everyone knows that. No one would ever wish it on anyone.
It also needs to be legal. Why? Because we tried making it illegal for years. Women had abortions anyway. Some got sick, some died, some ended up never being able to have children at all.
It didn't work, so we changed the law.
It doesn't make abortion right, or "sanction" it somehow. We don't need a government that makes moral decisions for us. That's for us to do.
Also, since when is it my business what women decide to do with their bodies? Leave it up to them and they'll do the right thing. Not right for me, or right for everyone, but what's right for them. That freedom is why we have a society to begin with.
A sidenote: I think it's good that this guy made those people think about what they were picketing for, I never realized that those people were doing this so blindly. I just assumed they all wanted to throw those women in the slammer.
By: actual
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
Right on. The interviewer's questions forced these people to think about why abortion is bad. They clearly have issues with any legal punishment for women who get abortions, yet they want it to be illegal. Essentially, it's dawning on them that all they really want is to strongly recommend with the force of law that none shall get abortions, without following through. They play the overbearing but well-intentioned mother who threatens spankings, only they get cold feet and can't follow through with any artificial consequences because they know in some vague way that these women can't be held totally accountable for getting an abortion. Underlying the irresponsibility, the selfishness, or the desperation are issues of education, social standing, money, or rape. These people understand that, but have yet to connect this understanding with their support of outlawing abortion, so they end up contradicting themselves.
Everyone agrees that abortion should be avoided. But everyone has yet to agree upon how it should be avoided, why it should be avoided, and what should be done when the day inexorably comes that abortion cannot be avoided. It's time pro-lifers stop acting like juvenile mothers, stop coddling everyone like they're stuffed animals, and start thinking about their impact on the real lives of other people.
Everyone agrees that abortion should be avoided. But everyone has yet to agree upon how it should be avoided, why it should be avoided, and what should be done when the day inexorably comes that abortion cannot be avoided. It's time pro-lifers stop acting like juvenile mothers, stop coddling everyone like they're stuffed animals, and start thinking about their impact on the real lives of other people.
By: Wondahboy
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
These pro-lifers probably don't even see the irony in forcing their will on women everywhere. They might as well be the rapist for ravaging each human being's ability to live as they see fit, for thoughtlessly robbing people of freedom without a care as to why other than the fact that someone somewhere made them feel it was always bad, all the time. Not that all pro-lifers are like this, but only those like the people portrayed in this clip.
By: Wondahboy
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
These people should have been aborted, I ******* hate stupid religious (worst expletive you can think of)'s I think everyone should have the right to believe what they want and yes that is sacred and proteched but the second you oush your ideas on me I want to "send you to wich ever god you prey"... They never thought abot the women?!?!?!? I wish wish christians like these were still eaten by lions for public entertainment. Thats reall human nature...
By: HateFiles
Re: Penalty for Illegal Abortions?
Anyone who has such views so extreme and certain about anything, especially exceptionally sensitive personal decisions have ceased critical thought. They have voluntarily embraced a firm decision based on societal influence, conditioning, and a narrow minded attempt at rationality.
Let me put it another way...
...everyone in this video can eat a dick.
Preferably, mine.
Let me put it another way...
...everyone in this video can eat a dick.
Preferably, mine.
By: Calm_Like_a_Bomb
