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The Price of Atheism
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What is it like to be an atheist in a town where faith is a way of life? As John Stossel reports, for Nicole Smalkowski it has been horrible.
After moving to Hardesty, OK three years ago at the age of 16, Nicole says she was called a "devil worshipper" by classmates, was harassed by teachers, and alleges she was ultimately suspended because she wouldn't recite the Lord's Prayer after high school basketball games.
Nicole's father says the high school violated the Constitution by endorsing school prayer and Christian beliefs. The school district strongly denies the charge.
Stossel also speaks with evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.
From a 20/20 special "Seeing and Believing".
After moving to Hardesty, OK three years ago at the age of 16, Nicole says she was called a "devil worshipper" by classmates, was harassed by teachers, and alleges she was ultimately suspended because she wouldn't recite the Lord's Prayer after high school basketball games.
Nicole's father says the high school violated the Constitution by endorsing school prayer and Christian beliefs. The school district strongly denies the charge.
Stossel also speaks with evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.
From a 20/20 special "Seeing and Believing".
Jul 9, 2007 9:00 PM
Re: The Price of Atheism
It's kind of amazing when John Stossel tries to use the burden of proof argument like that, I wonder if he really thinks like that.
Re: The Price of Atheism
He was just trying to tease out how their thought patterns. He doesn't necessarily think such arguments are at all valid.
By: Deh_Dude
Re: The Price of Atheism
You've got to feel sorry for the girl. I'm a Christian believer and I still hold to the belief that she has the right to believe whatever she wants. I don't think that just because she believes differently that she is inherently immoral or wicked--just that she's lost. I would want her to receive Christ as her savior, but the way Christ worked is nothing like what she described. In fact that is Pharisitical--which is a lot of what Jesus was against. It hurts my heart to see such things occur.
By: psychotic_venom
Re: The Price of Atheism
It's nice that you empathize with her, but I don't think you're as accepting as you may think you are. I was with you until you said she was a "lost" person. To be truely accepting, you have to realize that all beliefs have the potential to be wrong, including your own, and that you are just as likely to be wrong as she is. So no, she isn't "lost", your method of belief just happens to not work for her. I will give you kudos, though, for showing a lot more tolerance than I have seen in this country for non-believers.
By: keleona
Re: The Price of Atheism
Can you just accept that she thinks diffrently? Not everyone is going to agree with your views, Venom, no matter how right you believe you are. Thats all she wants. She dosent want to be looked at as lost or diffrent. Shes HUMAN just like you, Venom. She wants people to accept that she is human. Shes not lost, shes just not interested in any religion. Not Hindu, not christianity, not muslim, not any. Speaking as an Athiest raised from a devout family, I can relate to this girl.
By: meat
Re: The Price of Atheism
I can totally accept that she thinks differently. I completely believe she has the right to think what she wants and practice her beliefs how she sees fit (assuming it is legal, of course).
Does that mean that I have to stop believing in what I believe in?
Does that mean that I have to stop believing in what I believe in?
By: psychotic_venom
Re: The Price of Atheism
The need to proselytize has been the source of strife for time immemorial. While Christians in modern times tend to be less radical than they have in the past, they are still quite vehement. Humans fear change. They fear what is different, and new. They don't like things that move them out of their comfort zones. They're willing to stand by and let awful things be done, and in many cases they're willing to do awful things if it means protecting the safe little bubble that they live in. It's so easy subscribe to a belief system that excuses anything that you can do as long as you're say you're sorry. When everything that's good can be credited to God and everything that's bad can be blamed on the Devil, you don't have to worry about the gray areas. Religion is a way of just sticking you're head in the sand, and excuse to stop thinking. It's a addictive way of life, and people will blind themselves the evil that's done to maintain it. It's not just Christians, or Muslims. It's a story that's been unfolding for millennia, and it will keep going until we outgrow religion. I'm not suggesting spirituality is useless, or that no one has ever done good in the name of religion, but many more terrible things have been done in the name of religion, and much evil has been justified by 'righteous intent.' I appreciate you're relative open-mindedness, Venom, but I am obliged to respond by the the same principle that I'm ranting about: the unwillingness to stand by and allow the perpetuation of intolerance. The solution to the problem is not that everyone becomes Christian, the solution is that everyone renounces any dogma which excuses the persecution of people. Let reason be your guide, develop your OWN reasons for the way you live. Otherwise you live a lie. I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before, but as long as people are being persecuted because they don't believe I'm going to keep railing.
Re: The Price of Atheism
It's obvious the home schooling is doing much for her, at least in terms of learning history. Everyone knows the best defense against a Christian is a lion.
She should have taken her pet lion to school and she would have been fine!
She should have taken her pet lion to school and she would have been fine!
By: poolaka
Re: The Price of Atheism
More power to her and her family, but I fear that her atheism could be seen as indoctrination by her parents, which is another thing we atheists (notably Dawkins) are against.
By: Overmann
Re: The Price of Atheism
I think that Dawkins' position would be that we are all born atheist, and only by being told by our parents or other elders are we even introduced to the concept of religion. The argument being that you can't indoctrinate something that you inherently are. The fact that her parents are outspoken atheists like Dawkins makes it seem more like they are "teaching" atheism, but ultimately they're just not teaching religion.
By: tjbassoon
Re: The Price of Atheism
Im pretty sure her father did not take her to Athiest classes every sunday. There is no Athiest book. There is no dietey. Im willing to bet that her father helped things make sense.
By: meat
Re: The Price of Atheism
People really need to start reading the bible more. Don't they realize that that is one of the least christian things to do?
By: Wonder-Bread
Re: The Price of Atheism
Religion is great for humanity. All religions teach a lot of good moral things and good behavior to adopt. The problem is fanatism.
I would say that the people in that school reacted completely on the opposite of what their religion taught them.
She was true to herself and these people. I can't believe that some people are better lliving in lies than truth. If she lied, everyone would be happy. It's awful.
God is love. They should act as their god and spread love through anybody, whatever their believes.
I would say that the people in that school reacted completely on the opposite of what their religion taught them.
She was true to herself and these people. I can't believe that some people are better lliving in lies than truth. If she lied, everyone would be happy. It's awful.
God is love. They should act as their god and spread love through anybody, whatever their believes.
By: Kimiura
Re: The Price of Atheism
Good parenting should really be held responsible for growing and teaching children, not "god". imo.
By: meat
Re: The Price of Atheism
good parenting indeed should be responsible - Mother is God in the eyes of her child
By: D3NIS
Re: The Price of Atheism
Religion today is no more than a way of controlling the masses.
For many believers I guess it is about the teachings of a lot of good moral things and good behaviors to adopt. But at the end of the day you are taught to follow like sheep, no matter what.
Religion quashes free thought and is responsible for crimes against humanity, hatred and most of the conflict in the world today.
To be religious does not make you a good person, in fact you can do something bad and be forgiven for it, which makes it ok?!
Most religions are ripped off from ancient Egyptian astrology and zodiac worship, including Christianity.
www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
But hey, to each his own!
For many believers I guess it is about the teachings of a lot of good moral things and good behaviors to adopt. But at the end of the day you are taught to follow like sheep, no matter what.
Religion quashes free thought and is responsible for crimes against humanity, hatred and most of the conflict in the world today.
To be religious does not make you a good person, in fact you can do something bad and be forgiven for it, which makes it ok?!
Most religions are ripped off from ancient Egyptian astrology and zodiac worship, including Christianity.
www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
But hey, to each his own!
By: mattrass
Re: The Price of Atheism
"religion grants intangible emotional solace to those who require it"
love that docc
love that docc
By: A63
Re: The Price of Atheism
Has no one pointed out that this girl is absolutely hawt?* Jeez, the priorities of some people.
*By which I mean, of course, that she will be absolutely hawt in two years.
*By which I mean, of course, that she will be absolutely hawt in two years.
By: StrangeAttractor
Re: The Price of Atheism
Love thy neighbour.
Treat others as you would want to be treated.
Turn the other cheek.
When did these so called "Christians" forget these parts of the bible ? And they have the nerve to say that athiest have no morals, that they are wicked, and apparantly in this case are "devil worshipers" because they do not believe in god.
What if there was a kid on the basketball team that was of another faith ? Should their prayer be left out ?
If they're wanting people to turn the the bible and follow the ways of Jesus, they're not exactly following his teachings are they. The last i heard was that Jesus talked, people listened if they so wished and followed if they so wished also. He didn't force himself on anybody, or so the bible says. Why follow Jesus if i'm gonna end up like a nazi like you ?
Treat others as you would want to be treated.
Turn the other cheek.
When did these so called "Christians" forget these parts of the bible ? And they have the nerve to say that athiest have no morals, that they are wicked, and apparantly in this case are "devil worshipers" because they do not believe in god.
What if there was a kid on the basketball team that was of another faith ? Should their prayer be left out ?
If they're wanting people to turn the the bible and follow the ways of Jesus, they're not exactly following his teachings are they. The last i heard was that Jesus talked, people listened if they so wished and followed if they so wished also. He didn't force himself on anybody, or so the bible says. Why follow Jesus if i'm gonna end up like a nazi like you ?
By: D3NIS
Re: The Price of Atheism
This video angers me. It is why people like Richard Dawkins are writing books to try and spread reason and a better understanding of the universe. Our society is so wrapped up in Christianity, it hurts every single citizen living inside of it. People should be allowed to believe whatever they want, but by no means they should push their beliefs on anyone else. Just because our nation was born on Christian principals, does not mean that we should be a Christian nation. I stopped watching this video when they started interviewing the girls father. That interview just shows the ignorance of believers on regards towards atheism. If you are truly open minded on the truth of the universe, I see there being no reason you would lean towards Christianity or any other religion, unless you are pressured by social influences.
By: Wonderr
Re: Atheism in America (It Can Be Tough)
i was booted from boyscouts cuz i was atheist
By: spongebathe
Re: Atheism in America (It Can Be Tough)
My first girlfriend's parents forbade us see each other because I was an atheist.
Re: Atheism in America (It Can Be Tough)
Dishonorably discharged from the Nazi Jugend. Be glad.
I once upon a time (this is long ago) visited a similar cult, and let me tell you that I was out of there real fast (like a quarter of an hour later or so). Seeing little Görings play with crayons makes my skin crawl, and being surrounded by kids who sported mustaches and half a beard at twelve I didn't like, either. (This was when I couldn't yet muscle bull moose to the ground in snow three feet thick.)
I once upon a time (this is long ago) visited a similar cult, and let me tell you that I was out of there real fast (like a quarter of an hour later or so). Seeing little Görings play with crayons makes my skin crawl, and being surrounded by kids who sported mustaches and half a beard at twelve I didn't like, either. (This was when I couldn't yet muscle bull moose to the ground in snow three feet thick.)
Re: Atheism in America (It Can Be Tough)
What the hell you talkin about? "Muscle a bull moose in the ground"?
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
They were too easy on her. They should have killed her just like the Prophet Mohammad said. John Stossel and all of you on this board are Islamophobes for defending her plight.
By: poonhound
Re: The Price of Atheism
Richard Dawkins, if you say religion is divisive then you're being devisive
Come on athiests, you have to realize there is some intolerance towards religious people among us too. By Richard Dawkins is saying religion is divisive, then he's basically being divisive himself.
Come on athiests, you have to realize there is some intolerance towards religious people among us too. By Richard Dawkins is saying religion is divisive, then he's basically being divisive himself.
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
People have the right to believe in idiotic religions and I respect that right by not kicking them out of my clubs because of their beliefs (even if it's a private club where I have the right to do so) and not ever trying to stop them from preaching to anybody that wishes to listen to them. I conversely have the right to have zero respect for their religion and demonstrate that lack of respect.
You use the word tolerance as if to suggest it were always a good thing. It is good to be tolerant in certain situations and even just wise to be tolerant in others, but that does not suggest that you should always be tolerant. If you have a good logical reason to believe that something that somebody else is doing is harmful to others then you are not obligated to be tolerant of it in any way.
You use the word tolerance as if to suggest it were always a good thing. It is good to be tolerant in certain situations and even just wise to be tolerant in others, but that does not suggest that you should always be tolerant. If you have a good logical reason to believe that something that somebody else is doing is harmful to others then you are not obligated to be tolerant of it in any way.
By: gerrywastaken
Re: The Price of Atheism
Wow, if you REALLY knew the price of atheism, you'd be shocked. But it's like credit, you don't have to pay til later.
Seriously, the girl just doesn't need to participate with the group prayer and such. That's been the case forever. And if anyone actually mocks and teases her, then shame on them, it's a terrible testimony for Christ and a typical mob behavior. Christians aren't immune.
Judging from her dads behavior, I guess that he has a large part to do with her animosity. Kind of like the dad in California that raised the "In God We Trust" stink on behalf of his daughter.
Seriously, the girl just doesn't need to participate with the group prayer and such. That's been the case forever. And if anyone actually mocks and teases her, then shame on them, it's a terrible testimony for Christ and a typical mob behavior. Christians aren't immune.
Judging from her dads behavior, I guess that he has a large part to do with her animosity. Kind of like the dad in California that raised the "In God We Trust" stink on behalf of his daughter.
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: The Price of Atheism
Fuck that bitch I lived in that awful state for 16 years, atheist for most of them and I never got on TV.
People of Oklahoma are some of the most vile and evil people in America. Imagine a state full of Westboro Baptist church members.
People of Oklahoma are some of the most vile and evil people in America. Imagine a state full of Westboro Baptist church members.
By: danthaman
Re: The Price of Atheism
Matthew, Chapter 6, lines 5 and 6, from the King James translation of the Bible:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
By: cthomas
Re: The Price of Atheism
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
By: cthomas
Re: The Price of Atheism
IMO Atheism is a religion too. People fight and fight against those that believe there is a God and even against those that are agnostic. Belief, to me, means a religion. To Believe there is no God is to believe in something that is nothing, which is a religion in my book.
I have a friend who is an atheist, reads Dawkins (thinks he's an arrogant fuck), but do I disown him because of his belief? No. I am a Christian, and I believe there is a God because I have experienced His work in the life of my family. What really pisses me off are the supposed Christians that know what they are doing, when they really don't have a clue. Life is about Love and Relationships and we cannot make it in this world without either! So many Christians are full of hate and that is sad.
I feel Jesus would have befriended my friend, regardless what he believed, just as He befriended the tax men and whores in Judea.
I have a friend who is an atheist, reads Dawkins (thinks he's an arrogant fuck), but do I disown him because of his belief? No. I am a Christian, and I believe there is a God because I have experienced His work in the life of my family. What really pisses me off are the supposed Christians that know what they are doing, when they really don't have a clue. Life is about Love and Relationships and we cannot make it in this world without either! So many Christians are full of hate and that is sad.
I feel Jesus would have befriended my friend, regardless what he believed, just as He befriended the tax men and whores in Judea.
By: Makatsuta
Re: The Price of Atheism
I love befriending whores, tax men and jesus can piss off though.
By: ROXYBOO
Re: The Price of Atheism
Atheism is a religion in the same way that an empty cup is a flavor of soda.
By: Faffy
Re: The Price of Atheism
AGNOSTICISM is a religion in the same way that an empty cup is a flavor of soda. Being an athiest means you've determined (without evidence) that there is no god.
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
Something that athiests and religious people have in common is that they have made up their minds regarding religion. Is it such a far stretch to say athiesm is, in a wierd way, a religious point of view?
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
Would you say that people who do not believe in Zeus are religious? How about Anubis?
If you think atheism is a religion, you really don't know much about atheists. They aren't like Christians, or even a Christian sect. Trying to organize atheists is like herding cats. Just because atheists don't believe in a god does not mean that they share the same political or philosophical beliefs, contrary to the claim that we are all godless communists/liberals.
While people like Dawkins and Hitchens may be prominent atheists, they are not in any way representative of atheists - except for their lack of belief in god. Case in point: Hitchens supports the war in Iraq, but I don't. I respect Hitchens and other prominent atheists for challenging religion and raising awareness and understanding of atheism, but, unlike the many priests and preachers in religions, they are not prophets or leaders. They are merely activists.
If you think atheism is a religion, you really don't know much about atheists. They aren't like Christians, or even a Christian sect. Trying to organize atheists is like herding cats. Just because atheists don't believe in a god does not mean that they share the same political or philosophical beliefs, contrary to the claim that we are all godless communists/liberals.
While people like Dawkins and Hitchens may be prominent atheists, they are not in any way representative of atheists - except for their lack of belief in god. Case in point: Hitchens supports the war in Iraq, but I don't. I respect Hitchens and other prominent atheists for challenging religion and raising awareness and understanding of atheism, but, unlike the many priests and preachers in religions, they are not prophets or leaders. They are merely activists.
By: chronomitch
Re: The Price of Atheism
I'm not too sure there's a whole LOT of distance between having strong opinions about religion and being religious. To me, agnostics appear to be the least religious group of them all since they either haven't considered whether a god exists or just haven't made a commitment either way. Athiests are more likely to be aligned in their beliefs on religion than are agnostics and thus there appears to be a following. Creepy!
I guess athiests wouldn't be a sect. But when you have "leaders" such as Richard Dawkins spreading their intolerance for religion, then athiesm does appear to be fanatical fundamentalist group. That just doesn't seem a whole lot better than Christian fundamentalism to me.
I guess athiests wouldn't be a sect. But when you have "leaders" such as Richard Dawkins spreading their intolerance for religion, then athiesm does appear to be fanatical fundamentalist group. That just doesn't seem a whole lot better than Christian fundamentalism to me.
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
Did you even read what I said about Dawkins not being a leader?
As for "spreading intolerance of religion," show me a case where Dawkins or Hitchens has advocated killing, maiming, silencing, etc any religious leader or religious sect. Disagreement and opposition is not the same as intolerance.
On the flip side, I do see religious people and leaders trying to make the US a Christian nation, committing violent and "intolerant" acts against atheists (such as this video) and calling for the deportation of atheists to North Korea.
Don't you just love double standards?
As for "spreading intolerance of religion," show me a case where Dawkins or Hitchens has advocated killing, maiming, silencing, etc any religious leader or religious sect. Disagreement and opposition is not the same as intolerance.
On the flip side, I do see religious people and leaders trying to make the US a Christian nation, committing violent and "intolerant" acts against atheists (such as this video) and calling for the deportation of atheists to North Korea.
Don't you just love double standards?
By: chronomitch
Re: The Price of Atheism
Dawkins hasn't advocated violence against religous people. It's just his rhetoric about religion being the worst thing in the world that makes him appear intolerant to me.
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
Okay, maybe athiests aren't religious, but damn they follow their non-religious doctrine religiously!
By: KeyserSosay
Re: The Price of Atheism
There is no such thing as a "non-religious doctrine" As one other commentator said, trying to organize atheists is like herding cats. Atheists must navigate life without the pre-packaged set of guidelines handed to believers. They must rely on critical thinking, rationality, compassion, tolerance, and a good familiarity with history to make sense of life. And, occasionally, of believers. My heart goes out to the young woman in this piece.
By: nonbeliever57
Re: The Price of Atheism
I've made up my mind that I'm not believing things without evidence. If you can prove to me that God exists then obviously I'll believe in it.
By: Faffy
Re: The Price of Atheism
This site always has the best discussions on religion. Haven't seen it anywhere else
By: maxpower1013
