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West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
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Biblical laws deem homosexuality an abomination, along with working on the Sabbath and touching pigskin.
In this clip from "The West Wing," President Bartlet (Martin Sheen) confronts Christian fundamentalist talk show host Dr.
Jenna Jacobs (Claire Yartlett) over her stance on homosexuality with his own quotes from scripture.
From the episode "The Midterms," originally aired 18 October 2000 (Season 2, Episode 3).
In this clip from "The West Wing," President Bartlet (Martin Sheen) confronts Christian fundamentalist talk show host Dr.
Jenna Jacobs (Claire Yartlett) over her stance on homosexuality with his own quotes from scripture.
From the episode "The Midterms," originally aired 18 October 2000 (Season 2, Episode 3).
Apr 28, 2007 6:16 PM
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
I can totally imagine George W. Bush holding that speech, regarding his rhetorical genius.
By: mongojazz
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
As soon as I saw her pic I knew the scene. Great show.
By: opus01
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
Few things piss me off like people who want to claim Jesus and then go back to the Old Testemant. Jesus said, hey, it's cool, I don't care if your dick is cut or not, let's kick it together and help people and fuck the law if it isn't working for us. Jesus said don't go judging people when your fool ass is full of shit, too, go wash your dirty neck and leave other people alone. So go with the New Testment or the Old, because when they don't agree, if you're with Jesus, New trumps Old. You don't get to pick and choose, sometimes with Jesus and sometimes not. Hell, I'm not a Christian and even I know this.
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
"Hell, I'm not a Christian and even I know this."
Are you absolutely sure you aren't?
Are you absolutely sure you aren't?
By: MisterShrubber
Scripture taken out of context
It's easy for people with no knowledge of the bible to take pieces of scripture out of context. Shoot, even televangelists do it! But you have to remember that ALL the bible isn't talk to ALL the bible. In Leviticus, God was talking to the Hebrews. In Romans, God, through Paul, was talking to Romans citizen without a base in Jewish teaching. Ect, Ect, Ect.
Some of these rules still apply (homosexuality is a serious sin with serious consequences), some don't (Gentiles can enjoy pork and crabs at a Bar-B-Q).
But of course, those with no biblical understanding will see something like this and think it's accurate.
For the last 30 years or so, perhaps a bit longer, we've failed to teach our children the bible, and the chickens have come home to roost.
Some of these rules still apply (homosexuality is a serious sin with serious consequences), some don't (Gentiles can enjoy pork and crabs at a Bar-B-Q).
But of course, those with no biblical understanding will see something like this and think it's accurate.
For the last 30 years or so, perhaps a bit longer, we've failed to teach our children the bible, and the chickens have come home to roost.
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: Scripture taken out of context
And what exactly is the basis for which rules apply and which don't? Convenience? Papal edict? The truth is, there's no middle ground. Taking some passages of the bible literally and others as obsolete is hypocritical, which, last time I checked, is a sin in its own right.
In any case, arguing against homosexuality based on biblical teachings is all good and fine, it's your religion, you get to preach it. But translating that from belief into law violates the first amendment, no matter how you cut it.
In any case, arguing against homosexuality based on biblical teachings is all good and fine, it's your religion, you get to preach it. But translating that from belief into law violates the first amendment, no matter how you cut it.
By: SpawnOfThrawn
Re: Scripture taken out of context
The audience will be implicit in the context. Sometimes, it can be very subtle.
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: Scripture taken out of context
Darn, I wanted to edit that but hit OK to quick.
You're comment about who is to make the decision about whether something is literal or not, who the audience is, etc... that's you. It's up to you with the guidance of God. It's not up to a church or particular denomination. It's important to remember that the Catholics, Baptists (of which I'm one), Methodists, etc.... don't have a lock on truth. In fact, organized religions are subject to rotting from within because they place men in positions of power and grant them trust. They will screw up.
That's not to say that you shouldn't go to church. In fact, you should. You learn from others and stay fired up. But in the end, it's between you and God.
You're comment about who is to make the decision about whether something is literal or not, who the audience is, etc... that's you. It's up to you with the guidance of God. It's not up to a church or particular denomination. It's important to remember that the Catholics, Baptists (of which I'm one), Methodists, etc.... don't have a lock on truth. In fact, organized religions are subject to rotting from within because they place men in positions of power and grant them trust. They will screw up.
That's not to say that you shouldn't go to church. In fact, you should. You learn from others and stay fired up. But in the end, it's between you and God.
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: Scripture taken out of context
So, the bible says whatever God, personally, tells you it means. That's a very convenient way overlook its glaring moral inconsistencies , and to confirm your own prejudices.
You're a bigot, Chuck. You might be well-meaning and full of love for your fellow man, but you're a bigot.
You're a bigot, Chuck. You might be well-meaning and full of love for your fellow man, but you're a bigot.
Re: Scripture taken out of context
I see, I see... so then by your very own logic neither you nor anyone else has absolutely any authority whatsoever to claim that homosexuality is a sin.
By: Deh_Dude
Re: Scripture taken out of context
"For the last 30 years or so, perhaps a bit longer, we've failed to teach our children the bible"
If you ask me, we haven't failed enough!
If you ask me, we haven't failed enough!
By: McCorvic
Re: Scripture taken out of context
I understand your dissolution. Remember your above statement in 30 years and see if you still stick by it.
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: Scripture taken out of context
I feel confident when I say that many millions of people think that teaching the children the Bible isn't the only way to save Humanity. I think the problem is that for too long, too many people have been imposing their way of life upon their children and upon others. Chickens coming home to roost, indeed.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Scripture taken out of context
"I feel confident when I say that many millions of people think that teaching the children the Bible isn't the only way to save Humanity."
Couldn't agree more. I can't understand how people think being "Christian" is the only way to have morals. I'm freakin' Atheist and act more Christian than most religious people I know.
Couldn't agree more. I can't understand how people think being "Christian" is the only way to have morals. I'm freakin' Atheist and act more Christian than most religious people I know.
By: McCorvic
So what's good for the goose isn't for the gander?
So what you're saying is that God had different rules depending on who he was talking to?
What a load of tripe.
You either look on the bible as a bunch of people OF THEIR TIME writing what they DECIDED was God's law and infusing it with their own beliefs and prejudices, and therefore has to be read in that context and filtered based on the moral understandings of today. OR you take it ALL as fact, as written, don't pick and chose, DON'T try that shit.
Basically you have to take the book, look for the core message that is in there (be good to each other, treat others as you would be treated) and discard the rest of the crap that OTHERS have tacked on... don't say 'Well, of course slavery is wrong, so just ignore that bit', but at the same time 'homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so'... really, if you're going to be that much of a hypocrite you really should keep your mouth shut.
Do unto others.
You would not like it if others hated you for having sex with a woman, even though it's done behind closed doors and DOESN'T AFFECT THEM AT ALL... so why is it ok for you to do so to homosexuals?
What a load of tripe.
You either look on the bible as a bunch of people OF THEIR TIME writing what they DECIDED was God's law and infusing it with their own beliefs and prejudices, and therefore has to be read in that context and filtered based on the moral understandings of today. OR you take it ALL as fact, as written, don't pick and chose, DON'T try that shit.
Basically you have to take the book, look for the core message that is in there (be good to each other, treat others as you would be treated) and discard the rest of the crap that OTHERS have tacked on... don't say 'Well, of course slavery is wrong, so just ignore that bit', but at the same time 'homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so'... really, if you're going to be that much of a hypocrite you really should keep your mouth shut.
Do unto others.
You would not like it if others hated you for having sex with a woman, even though it's done behind closed doors and DOESN'T AFFECT THEM AT ALL... so why is it ok for you to do so to homosexuals?
By: spoco2
Re: Scripture taken out of context
So some things forbidden in the Old Testament are now be OK, but others only a few sentences away aren't? Did I miss something in Gospel where God put an addendum. Hey PalmBayChuck if you work or shop on the Sabbath or eat shell fish or pork you're going to hell just like any Fudge Packer. Gospel is gospel.
You live all the Levitical Law or none of it. You can't pick and choose.
You live all the Levitical Law or none of it. You can't pick and choose.
By: slackerdeluxe
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
This was awesome. I liked how he asked her if she was a doctor of medicine or psychology. It's terrible how fundamentalists ignore what scientific evidence there is about homosexuality, yet still acknowledge that the earth rotates round the sun. It's just fear of being wrong and having to approach the world in a new way that keeps these people so stalwart. Most are aware of their own self-contradictions, but they keep ignoring it for fear of the alternative, which they don't quite understand. It's sad. We need to have a course in the scientific and skeptical world view, marketed as an easy way to transition into the good life.
By: Wondahboy
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
Didn't watch it. Don't need to.
Trading Bible quotes is just stupid - a document must be proved inerrant or authoritative before you can use it as a source. Only Catholics can do that, and they don't do the quote exchange thing.
Trading Bible quotes is just stupid - a document must be proved inerrant or authoritative before you can use it as a source. Only Catholics can do that, and they don't do the quote exchange thing.
By: Bravado
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
As devout a Christian I am, there's not much to debate here, for the sole reason that few opinions are going to be changed by some statement on a comment board.
Flame wars -1.
Flame wars -1.
By: MrElmo
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
You guys just do not understand.
Aliens from space (angels) came down, and messed with the tribal just coming out of the stone age humans.
Aliens from space (angels) came down, and messed with the tribal just coming out of the stone age humans.
By: EvilBastard
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
http://www.trosch.org/ant/bartlett-00j18_west-wing.html
By: beejor
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
That site does have one or two decent points, but mostly it's a bunch of straw men and non-sequiturs. The only thing I'm going to talk about is the logic behind the arguments. Any comments regarding anything else will be ignored.
In their first argument about homosexuality, they're also accusing masturbation of being a more grave sin than abortion. Also, I'm no religious scholar, but I was under the impression that those who died before Christ or who never hear of Christ during their lifetime cannot go to Heaven, and an unborn fetus would fall into this category. I could be wrong on this though.
The next point on slavery doesn't refute the fact that the Bible condones the selling of one's children into slavery at all.
The next point on the Sabbath doesn't point out that the Bible says it's OK to work on the Sabbath, it just points out that the Bible contradicts itself. The following three points cannot all be logically true: 1) God is infallible, 2) Jesus is (at least a part of or an incarnation of) God, and 3) God said not to work on the Sabbath, but Jesus said that it was sometimes OK to work on the Sabbath.
My previous points, or points similar to them, can be applied to the section regarding the touching of a dead pig.
The last paragraph is the only one I find to be compelling, although it does prohibit the creation of mules. While the passages cited clearly do not cite a penalty for wearing a garment of multiple threads and planting two different kinds of crops next to each other, they still clearly prohibit it.
I thought the political undertones were hilarious.
In their first argument about homosexuality, they're also accusing masturbation of being a more grave sin than abortion. Also, I'm no religious scholar, but I was under the impression that those who died before Christ or who never hear of Christ during their lifetime cannot go to Heaven, and an unborn fetus would fall into this category. I could be wrong on this though.
The next point on slavery doesn't refute the fact that the Bible condones the selling of one's children into slavery at all.
The next point on the Sabbath doesn't point out that the Bible says it's OK to work on the Sabbath, it just points out that the Bible contradicts itself. The following three points cannot all be logically true: 1) God is infallible, 2) Jesus is (at least a part of or an incarnation of) God, and 3) God said not to work on the Sabbath, but Jesus said that it was sometimes OK to work on the Sabbath.
My previous points, or points similar to them, can be applied to the section regarding the touching of a dead pig.
The last paragraph is the only one I find to be compelling, although it does prohibit the creation of mules. While the passages cited clearly do not cite a penalty for wearing a garment of multiple threads and planting two different kinds of crops next to each other, they still clearly prohibit it.
I thought the political undertones were hilarious.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
Dear me. I apparently missed the heading under which this article was under: "Martin Sheen, writers, directors, producers, cast, and Board of Directors are all on their way to HELL unless they repent and make public restitution."
Now I feel stupid for assuming that whoever wrote this article was worth refuting. My apologies. Please ignore my previous post.
Now I feel stupid for assuming that whoever wrote this article was worth refuting. My apologies. Please ignore my previous post.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
I just wish we would learn how to keep religion OUT of government. Religion is just the way SOME people chose to live. It doesn't mean you have to MAKE ME live it the same way. It's these bible pushers that piss me off. I leave you alone, now let me BE! - Believer in Science
By: IceLed
Re: West Wing: Fighting Scripture with Scripture
It's funny, but in Martin Sheen's character trying to make the lady/christians look stupid, his lack of knowledge of the bible throws it back in his face. So many people read the old testament and the Levitical law, say "Hey, YOU don't do this stuff", and walk off like they've made a point. The only point he's made is that he hasn't read the whole thing.
Anyone who studies law, science or literature knows that you don't make a case, theory or thesis on just one part of your topic. You take the whole thing in and then make your points.
I would think that anyone, regardless of his/her feelings or beliefs on the bible, would dismiss out of context rantings simply out of principal.
Anyone who studies law, science or literature knows that you don't make a case, theory or thesis on just one part of your topic. You take the whole thing in and then make your points.
I would think that anyone, regardless of his/her feelings or beliefs on the bible, would dismiss out of context rantings simply out of principal.
By: da-flotsam
