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Penn and Teller: Gun Control
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Penn and Teller expose the fallacy of gun control.
From the show Bullshit.
From the show Bullshit.
Apr 14, 2007 6:55 AM
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
If I could vote that higher than a 10 I would have.
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
re: ... if you were a woman, then you would appreciate guns as an equalizer....
I'm an average post-middle-aged man. Thus about 1/4 of the population could beat me to death barehanded. Worse, a person intending violence to me would likely add a tool to increase the odds in their favor - knife, bat, club, hammer, golf club ... the list of murder weapons is very, very long.
I cherish my equalizers. I hate to see bullies and bad guys win even if it is not me as their victim and, even if they are operating under the color of corrupt politicians. I feel it is a social responsibility to stop violent people and unarmed citizens are socially irresponsible.
I'm an average post-middle-aged man. Thus about 1/4 of the population could beat me to death barehanded. Worse, a person intending violence to me would likely add a tool to increase the odds in their favor - knife, bat, club, hammer, golf club ... the list of murder weapons is very, very long.
I cherish my equalizers. I hate to see bullies and bad guys win even if it is not me as their victim and, even if they are operating under the color of corrupt politicians. I feel it is a social responsibility to stop violent people and unarmed citizens are socially irresponsible.
By: Slideman
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I think the UK is a good example of why guns aren't always responsible, after all there are only 55 million people living here and no legalised guns, yet the murder and crime rates are unreal.
People here certainly don't need the things to kill each other. They have knives and their bare hands.
People here certainly don't need the things to kill each other. They have knives and their bare hands.
By: RainbowTrout
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
this video is great, but I think the very best part is the little tag at the end with George Washington
By: Gunboat
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Not wholly accurate. In the UK, there were 1.4 murders per 100,000 people in 2005/2006. In the USA, there were 5.5 murders per 100,000 people in 2005/2006.
However, I am not sure about the general crime rate. I'll look it up another time.
However, I am not sure about the general crime rate. I'll look it up another time.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Forgive my ignorance, but if you have a country that has 55 million people and some of the strictest gun law in the first world has a murder rate of 1.4 per 100K and a country with 300 million with more gun than most continents has a murder rate of 5.5 per 100K ........shouldn't your rate be a hellva lot lower, cant blame all of that on soccer hooligans at Man U games.
By: MarkSPQR
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I live in Glasgow in Scotland in the UK, Glasgow has the highest violent crime rate in europe and that's mainly knives. I totally agree with you there ma man and unfortunately i live in one of the "dodgey" areas. Its sometimes scary hitting the clubs
By: D3NIS
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
This is one thing I never understood about you americans. Why would there be a need to defend yourself with a gun if the bad guy in front of you doesn't have one either? And think of it, it's a lot harder to do something like Colombine if you are only armed with a knife...
By: Sleepy8974
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Law Abiding Citizen Without Gun Control Laws:
Gets gun for protection.
Law Abiding Citizen With Gun Control Laws:
Doesn't get gun due to restrictions.
Criminal Without Gun Control Laws:
Has gun, but has harder time committing crimes against people knowing that many people have guns for defense.
Criminal With Gun Control Laws:
STILL gets gun by illegal means, commits crimes.
Gets gun for protection.
Law Abiding Citizen With Gun Control Laws:
Doesn't get gun due to restrictions.
Criminal Without Gun Control Laws:
Has gun, but has harder time committing crimes against people knowing that many people have guns for defense.
Criminal With Gun Control Laws:
STILL gets gun by illegal means, commits crimes.
By: AlkalinexFire
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
STILL, guns tend to be far too common in America. Maybe John Doe, aged 17 wouldn't get his hands on a gun as fast as he does now when there would be less guns. Gun control as it is now merely cuts off the branches of the tree of violence that has grown over the years (sorry for being so metaphorical), but doesn't do anything about uprooting it.
But for that, it might as well be too late already.
The cold war should've been a good enough example that an arms race (this time between "good" and "bad" guys, of course much easier to depict than the roles the US and russia took back then) can't possibly be the solution to the problem at hand: General stupidity.
Oh wait, a gun might actually help here. But who is going to clean up?
But for that, it might as well be too late already.
The cold war should've been a good enough example that an arms race (this time between "good" and "bad" guys, of course much easier to depict than the roles the US and russia took back then) can't possibly be the solution to the problem at hand: General stupidity.
Oh wait, a gun might actually help here. But who is going to clean up?
By: mongojazz
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
You're not a woman, are you? If you were, I'd wager your thoughts on defending yourself without a weapon against an unarmed attacker might be substantially different.
By: Short-order
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Oh, and ever hear of the knife-wielding murderers who run into preschools in Japan and kill a bunch of kids? It happens often enough that I wish that teachers in Japan could carry.
By: Short-order
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I could think of a 100 ways to kill mass amounts of people. In fact i can think of ways that could kill a hell of a lot more people than 100 people with guns. Seriously if you think getting rid of guns will even affect the murder rate in a positive manner your more nuts than the criminals using the guns. In the United States we will find a way to do whatever task is before us. We are resourceful and if a gun isnt the weapon something else will be. Its true others here are unresponsible and lazy so children sometimes get guns and terrible things sometimes happen. But whats worse, 150 or so children dying a year from gun accidents or China poisoning all of our children? How about the presrcription drugs and food additives our FDA allows that cause harm to millions? In war we hear about "acceptable losses". I have 3 children and id hate to lose any of them for any reason. But i could not live with myself if they died at the hands of a violent person because i was too much of a wussy (i hope that word is ok mods) to do whatever i had to in order to protect them. In reference to the movie matrix, what pill did you take? :-)
By: SimGameIt
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I'm sorry, but the 2nd Amendment is the single most outdated piece of legislation in this country. Back in the 1700's, a "well-regulated militia" could stand a chance against an oppressive government. How long do you think a "well-regulated militia" would last against the current US military? You could arm half the population of the country and they'd still lose.
That being said, I'm not necessarily for gun control. I'm just against people pretending that the justification for the 2nd amendment is still relevant.
That being said, I'm not necessarily for gun control. I'm just against people pretending that the justification for the 2nd amendment is still relevant.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Just goes to show that we are in a sad state now that the goverment has already gone out of the peoples control and into the hands of selfish politicians. Now laws are made for the sake of politicians and their interests and the interests of lobbyists and interest groups and big corporations. The interests of the people have fallen into the background.
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I dunno about that. Half the US population is 150 million. The US military is 4 million including reserves. I don't care to think about the outcome of that matchup, but I'm certain that it would be all the more difficult to stand up against a government without having guns.
By: Hummm
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Well, 60 million people are 14 or younger, and about 36 million people are 64 and older. So, while half of the US population is 150 million, there's probably about 102 million that are really capable of fighting. That leaves the citizens outnumbering the soldiers about 25 to 1. With superior technology and training, I'd put my money on them, but I digress.
Point is, the laws of the USA are such that there are so many ways to defend your rights that it seems silly to appeal to the defense of our rights as a justification for owning a firearm. When the 2nd Amendment was written, the colonies had just broke free from an oppressive government that did not give them any say in the legislative process. The modern government does allow your to voice your opinion; If you think your rights are being infringed upon, go out and get active. Vote.
I'm not even going to bother listing obvious successful civil rights movements that advocated non-violent modes of protest.
Point is, the laws of the USA are such that there are so many ways to defend your rights that it seems silly to appeal to the defense of our rights as a justification for owning a firearm. When the 2nd Amendment was written, the colonies had just broke free from an oppressive government that did not give them any say in the legislative process. The modern government does allow your to voice your opinion; If you think your rights are being infringed upon, go out and get active. Vote.
I'm not even going to bother listing obvious successful civil rights movements that advocated non-violent modes of protest.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Saying that the US citizens could not hold up to the US military is a silly and underthought argument. It is not the soldiers who develop the weapons. It is not the soldiers who manufacture the arms. It is not the soldiers who grow the food. The only reason that the US military is so powerful is that it is backed by the taxes of the citizens. Without the financial and practical resources, the US military would shrivel up and easily be overtaken by the citizenry.
By: Markisus
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
No, I've completely thought it out, and I'm fairly sure you've missed my point. It's a hypothetical situation; the effects of annihilating your citizenry were being willfully ignored, so that such a thought experiment could take place.
Allow me to reiterate. The 2nd Amendment exists because immediately prior to the writing of the Constitution, the Colonies fought off the oppressive British government. They were only able to do so because they were all armed. They saw this as being vital to "the security of a free State." Fast forward 220 years: Is the right to bear arms still necessary for "the security of a free State?" It does not appear to be so.
Of course this hypothetical situation would never, ever happen. I was never suggesting that it would be a good idea for the citizenry to take up arms against the government, or vice versa. My point was that if the government were to begin stripping us of our rights, guns would be of absolutely no good to us. The only thing that would help us is political activism.
Allow me to reiterate. The 2nd Amendment exists because immediately prior to the writing of the Constitution, the Colonies fought off the oppressive British government. They were only able to do so because they were all armed. They saw this as being vital to "the security of a free State." Fast forward 220 years: Is the right to bear arms still necessary for "the security of a free State?" It does not appear to be so.
Of course this hypothetical situation would never, ever happen. I was never suggesting that it would be a good idea for the citizenry to take up arms against the government, or vice versa. My point was that if the government were to begin stripping us of our rights, guns would be of absolutely no good to us. The only thing that would help us is political activism.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
When your right to free speech is stripped away, how do you expect to pull off political activism if the government can call you a criminal and have you arrested. You think a radical dictator or a government in a state of martial law is going to give a crap about how you protest or what you don't like?
On a further note, the minute the government stops serving the people and starts oppressing them, the military will most likely suffer a massive mutiny. While our military technology is very advanced, the people who operate it are still regular Americans who feel a patriotic duty to serve their country. Those men and women are not going to listen to orders that tell them to turn their guns on American citizens who have done nothing but peacefully protest the government. It's much more likely that those guns will be turned in defense of the protesters. There is a saying in the Marine Corps that the grunts are the most important members of a military force. That's because without the men on the ground, the military hierarchy will crumble.
So, no matter how advanced our military is, there is very little chance the government would come out of a second revolution on top.
On a further note, the minute the government stops serving the people and starts oppressing them, the military will most likely suffer a massive mutiny. While our military technology is very advanced, the people who operate it are still regular Americans who feel a patriotic duty to serve their country. Those men and women are not going to listen to orders that tell them to turn their guns on American citizens who have done nothing but peacefully protest the government. It's much more likely that those guns will be turned in defense of the protesters. There is a saying in the Marine Corps that the grunts are the most important members of a military force. That's because without the men on the ground, the military hierarchy will crumble.
So, no matter how advanced our military is, there is very little chance the government would come out of a second revolution on top.
By: wow__stupid
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Yea its funny all the talk of numbers but i wonder the number of military members that would fail to follow orders in this scenario. Id say the people have a damn good fighting chance. And i dont think wed be alone in the fight. Not to mention the advantage of knowing ones own terrain (refer to vietnam). Folks if you tthink our fredom is safe then read the "Patriot Act". Dont B.S. about our rights until you read that one piece of Dis-legislation. Someone commented vote. I did vote thank you. And my candidate got into office. But that doesnt mean i agree with his gun control thoughts. But being a poor unemployed person about to lose his home i felt that was more important than the issue of gun control. Guns will not be banned unless the government is up to something. Ive seen this somewhere and ill repeat it. The day the government take sour guns away is the day we need them the most. Note my main support of gun rights is to be able to protect my family from criminals. Sometimes the criminals are our government but in most cases its a robber/burgler/or distraught person. Thats like the idiocy of "Orders of Protection". In most cases of domestic violence involving murder with a gun the suspect kills himself as well. A piece of paper cant stop a bullet and the police cant help you when your already dead. The whole thought of relying on someone else protecting you from harm is goofy. Werent we once taught a job done best is one done yourself and dont rely on others to do things for you? Some people that commit violent crimes in the U.S. are tired of being ignored. Please check out a case ivolving Charles “Cookie” Thornton in Kirkwood Missouri. What that town was doing to him was plain wrong. That was his last resort as they were trying to take that mans life in every way but physical. He screamed and screamed and wasnt heard due to a corrupt city hall. Your going to see more of this until the corruption settles down. In fact i have a decal i made for my vehicles that say "Its going to take alot of Cookies before we can our our cake". Im not a violent person but sometimes its the only way people will listen. Hmmm seems like a group of people had the same thoughts just over 200 year ago which formed the beginning of this country. Sad that lessons are forgotten and its proof that not all past events teach us lessons. Does prove that history has a habit of repeating itself. I hope it doesnt have to come to it but i feel a revolution coming. Im not for the T.E.A. parties because i read the documents and i understand the moves made by Obama but it doesnt mean others do and they are growing in numbers and anger. Some food for thought.
By: SimGameIt
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Well I guess what we'd really need to make a modern day revolution work would be for everyone in the military to be in on it. Not so sure what millions of americans with guns could do against modern day technology. Plus the fact that a bunch of those americans dont agree we should have guns, so they wouldnt be in on it. Not that I'm backing a revolution or anything, but it is true that a government should be afraid of its people to some degree.
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
umm...you have heard of a little place named Iraq?
the united states has more firearms in the hands of civi's, than all the armys of the world...combined.
reading your posts, it seems you are not a fool, but maybe misled?
i think that a armed over throw of our goverment will not happen, ever. however, that is because even though our gov is dismissive of the people, that little document you find such distain for ,is there..
as too the posters from other countrys, whom can not understand "that crazy country".
we (the united states of america) may have a lot of faults, to loud, brash, maybe cocksure.
but when you need us, we do come to stand with our friends. maybe im oldfashend, i tend to see each man or women as good, and honorable. until proven otherwise..
im glad you all are discusing this, and i hope no matter your opinion you are truly thoughtful about the subject.
the united states has more firearms in the hands of civi's, than all the armys of the world...combined.
reading your posts, it seems you are not a fool, but maybe misled?
i think that a armed over throw of our goverment will not happen, ever. however, that is because even though our gov is dismissive of the people, that little document you find such distain for ,is there..
as too the posters from other countrys, whom can not understand "that crazy country".
we (the united states of america) may have a lot of faults, to loud, brash, maybe cocksure.
but when you need us, we do come to stand with our friends. maybe im oldfashend, i tend to see each man or women as good, and honorable. until proven otherwise..
im glad you all are discusing this, and i hope no matter your opinion you are truly thoughtful about the subject.
By: gunsmith
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I don't understand the relevance of your Iraq point. Clarification, please?
Unless you have some kind of statistical proof, I'm fairly certain that the United States does not have more firearms than all the armies of the world. If you can provide proof for that statement, I'd be more than willing to concede that point.
Unless you have some kind of statistical proof, I'm fairly certain that the United States does not have more firearms than all the armies of the world. If you can provide proof for that statement, I'd be more than willing to concede that point.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
His point with Iraq is that the Iraqi insurgents are doing to good of a job fighting the soldiers. They armed themselves with the weapons from ammo dumps that we failed to capture, but thats our incompetence. The point is: our army is beatable in urban enviroment. Granted the iraqis are slowly losing. That is because they are also fighting each other, (shiites v sunnis) the majority of the civilians support us, and our army has no sympathy for the rebels cause.
A rebellion in america may be very successful manly because of our volunteer army. If the government was so unpopular that the case of rebellion was even considered ona national level, then the army would shrink drastically in size. Less people would work for the army (i.e. governement technical and service contractors (MITRE, Blackwater) government research and production facilities.
A rebellion in america may be very successful manly because of our volunteer army. If the government was so unpopular that the case of rebellion was even considered ona national level, then the army would shrink drastically in size. Less people would work for the army (i.e. governement technical and service contractors (MITRE, Blackwater) government research and production facilities.
By: cheezsteak
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
You'll pardon my ignorance, but where do you get your information that the Iraqis support our troops? Over 70% surveyed said that it would be perfectly acceptable to kill an occupying American soldier.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Have been there? Well I have and dont believe everything you see or hear on Al Jezzera
By: MarkSPQR
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
People bearing arms back then were being prepared for another "invasion" (sorry for lack of a better word) But in this present day, who is actually going to "invade" America ?! Are guns really needed for that now ? Back then they couldn't even fathom the thought of armour peircing bullets, explosive rounds, rocket launchers or nuclear arms. In short I have made my point, that Americans were ready for the Brits if there were to be a round 2
By: D3NIS
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I'm very happy that I live in a country were gun posession is strictly regulated. I don't get it why they love their guns over there, what a crazy nation.
By: Ting_Ting_Jahe
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Gun Control is one of those rare times that I cannot pick a side for the life of me.
Pro of Gun Control: Guns kill people.
Con of Gun Control: Guns kill people.
Though interesting, this video didn't really help me pick a side. Crap.
Pro of Gun Control: Guns kill people.
Con of Gun Control: Guns kill people.
Though interesting, this video didn't really help me pick a side. Crap.
By: McCorvic
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Though, to add onto that, I can decide on one thing. People who really REALLY support either side. There are few things in life that is more obnoxious than a bunch of guys talking about how awesome guns are or a bunch of people talking about how bad guns are.
It really turns my stomach when people say they "like guns". I understand why owning guns may be important, but don't frakin' orgasm over them.
Barf.
It really turns my stomach when people say they "like guns". I understand why owning guns may be important, but don't frakin' orgasm over them.
Barf.
By: McCorvic
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I like guns. I've never owned one, or even fired one. I don't want one in my house. I hope none of my neighbors has any. I'm strongly in favor of gun control. But I like guns. They're compact pieces of highly-engineered, elegantly dangerous machinery that make loud noises.
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I can understand the whole rifle thing you've got going there in the states because you have your whole hunting season thing, but I'm unsure as to why the hand guns are there, I do understand the whole protection thing for women, and rightly so as there are many sexual assaults that take place all over the world and a woman can feel safer knowing she has it, as maice just gives her a chance to run but if she's wearing heels then :S its tricky. Valid points on both sides. Can't decide
By: D3NIS
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I'm split. I feel that hunting rifles, shotguns, and low capacity handguns should be allowed but I see no reason why automatic anything are specifically needed for self-defense. Even if we are "invaded", any country would be a fool to make landfall. You don't even need to set foot in a country to destroy it nowadays. The 2nd amendment is outdated.
By: TheInquisitor
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
The problem with anti-gun legislation is that it only effects law abiding citizens as mentioned earlier. Gun control has absolutely no effect on the criminal element in America (there was not rise in crime when the assault weapons ban of 1994 ran out.) In fact I have yet to find a crime ever committed with a registered class 3 weapon (a fully automatic firearms or explosive devise. ) The reason being it's insanely easy to find the owner of said arm because of it's registration. All gun control does is limit a citizens right to self defense and help politicians get elected.
Gus aren't scary if you know how to operate one.
Gus aren't scary if you know how to operate one.
By: ThaddeusDanger
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Once I tried to operate Gus. Boy, was he surprised!
By: sasquatchbill
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I don't like guns. But ya know what? The law allows for them. Try to change it. Not a chance. Ya know, that second ammendment thing.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
I wish this was funny. Or even a bit funny. It reminds me of a low-budget B.B.C. educational programme. The key word is 'lame'. As for gun control? If you lot in the U.S. want to shoot each other then go ahead: the rest of the world will continue to ignore you.
Other gun-cultures include: Afghanistan, Turkey, Russia, Iran, Iraq... Go figure.
Other gun-cultures include: Afghanistan, Turkey, Russia, Iran, Iraq... Go figure.
By: tomsk
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
Well don't forget those other gun-cultures like Switzerland, Finland, Israel, Germany, France, Sweden, New Zealand, Australia, Norway...
Hmm... Interesting, that.
Hmm... Interesting, that.
By: vitae_drinker
Re: Penn and Teller: Gun Control
As much as I enjoy the Brits you guys have to be kidding me, you all sound like a bunch of hypocrites. We had our "Manifest Destiny" days here in America, but you all conquered the world ..... of people without guns.
Lets be real for a second, in this country we are about as capitalist as modern society will allow. The end result of that is those who work smartest, have access to the most resources, and take the biggest risk will have a hellva lot more than others. Envy is a deadly sin for a reason, those who have less will want to take from those who have more. When resources are limited the fight for them will bring out the worst in people.
But your time is coming just wait, you can see the writing on the wall ..... when your immigrant population grows and starts stripping your social system dry, when the price of land on your island gets outta hand, racial lines get drawn to where your no longer just UK citizens.
I am not some arrogant American, I have been to your country . While there I remember reading an article about how some Yardies robbed a bank, when the bobbie's came to stop them stern word didnt do much against machine guns and the police had to run. Well from what i here they have guns now...... soon enough you will to, read Economics 101
Look accross the channel to see what is happening in France .... as much as I hate the French, they are as ahead of the curve over there when it comes to repercussions from socialist ideas in the new world.
Lets be real for a second, in this country we are about as capitalist as modern society will allow. The end result of that is those who work smartest, have access to the most resources, and take the biggest risk will have a hellva lot more than others. Envy is a deadly sin for a reason, those who have less will want to take from those who have more. When resources are limited the fight for them will bring out the worst in people.
But your time is coming just wait, you can see the writing on the wall ..... when your immigrant population grows and starts stripping your social system dry, when the price of land on your island gets outta hand, racial lines get drawn to where your no longer just UK citizens.
I am not some arrogant American, I have been to your country . While there I remember reading an article about how some Yardies robbed a bank, when the bobbie's came to stop them stern word didnt do much against machine guns and the police had to run. Well from what i here they have guns now...... soon enough you will to, read Economics 101
Look accross the channel to see what is happening in France .... as much as I hate the French, they are as ahead of the curve over there when it comes to repercussions from socialist ideas in the new world.
By: MarkSPQR
