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Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?

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Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Atheists are often asked, "If you don't believe in God, why do you care about religion?" This is one atheist's answer to that very question.
Sep 28, 2006 4:05 AM
Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
I'm not saying that I don't see the validity in your film, but it comes down to numbers.

If you have 10 people in a room, and 9 of them want steak, and 1 only eats veggies, then it would be unfair to the majority to require them to eat only veggies.

When you have 600 Million people in a country, and 80% of them are Christian, who are you to tell them they can't have prayer in school, or respect to God, or use the ethics they have been taught to guide their choices.

You and your kids don't have to join in on school prayer, leave the room if you want. And you can call it "the holidays" all you want, we'll call it Christmas.

You're the minority... and as in most things in life, the majority wins. Sorry if you don't like it.

By: Slyde
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
I am a history major and am almost finished with my bachelor's degree. I plan on continuing my education by attending graduate school with the ultimate goal of obtaining a Ph.D in history and becoming a history professor. I prefer US history and in my spare time, I enjoy reading and learning about the founding of our nation and the Civil War. I state all of this to qualify my arguments with his film. I'm sorry that the filmmaker is not allow to sell washing machines or cookware on Sundays because of the mean bullying Christians, but as far as Christians "rewriting history" that statement is false, at least in the context the filmmaker is using it. This nation wasn't founded by Christians? Consider this quote by Patrick Henry, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, property, and freedom of worship here." George Washington wasn't a Christian? Well that statement would have come as a suprise to our first president who wrote a published prayer that stated in part, "Let me live according to those holy rules which thou hast this day prescribed in Thy Holy Word. Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. Bless O Lord all the people of this land." While some of the other founders such as Jefferson, Franklin, etc. weren't especially religious, it cannot be stated that they were athiests. Their religious convictions could be considered nonpracticing Christian or more accurately Deist. No one of the founding fathers, however, could be considered athiest. So filmmaker, I'm sorry that your beliefs are in the minority. In the United States, you have the freedom not to believe in God if you so choose and I have the freedom to believe in God. You have to understand that the laws, politicians, that you take objection to were voted in by a popular majority. The first amendment states that the government will not establish a state religion, in other words their will never be a Church of America like there's a Church of England. We are all guaranteed a freedom of religion, but we are not guaranteed freedom from other people's religion.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
I'm surprised at how much you have missed the point of learning history, history teaches perceptive above all else and it's by examining these perspectives we can understand why people did what they did.

The founding fathers where enlightens, building their beliefs and principles off the ideals of the French revolution. Honestly I don't want to write a paper here, but the enlightenment was very much against the church having any part in the government after witnessing the end of the dark ages.

While I would agree that the founding fathers where not atheists, that wasn’t the point of the film. The point is that the country was not founded on christen beliefs but rather free rational thinking. Hell if you want more proof of this simply take a close look at the art on the different federal buildings, you'll notice that any place the ten commandments are shown the first few commandments are not shown since they deal with your relation with god and therefore have no place with the law.
By: slage123
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
I understand the importance of perspective in history. The founding fathers did not want a state dominated by a church as they had back in England, but that didn't mean that they wanted to create a government absent of God. As far as the enlightenment, some argue that religion and rational thought cannot coexist, that is not true. While there are religious fundamentalists who reject rational thought, the belief in God does not mean that said person is incapable of rational thinking, Sir Issac Newton for example. And as far as the American Revolution being based on the French Revolution, the French Revolution didn't start until 1789 and for that being based on rational thought, while some of the original revolutionaries based their ideas on the works of Voltaire and others, it wasn't very rational to put thousands of so-called royalists to the guilotine. Also the dark ages ended in about the year 1000 AD, so none of the founding fathers witnessed the end of it. Perspective is an important part of the study of history, but so is accuracy.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
"We are all guaranteed a freedom of religion, but we are not guaranteed freedom from other people's religion." Nor are we guaranteed freedom from other people's points of view, other people's right to express their discontent. As long as we live in America we need to embrace the ideas and ideologys of others, all theit points of view, all their perspectives, and all their thoughts on all things. If we can do that, then we have Democoracy.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
rickhatman, Here's is Washington's REAL prayer:
"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the state over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose examples in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.
I have the honor to be, with much esteem and respect, sir, your Excellency's most obedient and most humble servant. -- G Washington.
-- George Washington, letter sent to the governors in 1783, urging them to quell anarchy and riots by alleviating distress and discontent, quoted from Ford's Writings of Washington, vol. x, p. 265, also quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20"


As a historian I'm rather supprised you quote such an utter lie. Stay in school.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
Actually... there aren't 600 million people in the US. There's more like... 275 million.

And 80% of this country is NOT Christian. Less than 10% of people in the US attend church more than once per year. Being a Christian does not mean you claim all of its beliefs without fulfilling any obligations.

And I don't know where you're getting your ideas, but consider this.

Democracy is not rule by the majority, it is rule for the protection of the minority. Minority rights are the key here. According to your logic, since the US is composed of 70% whites, we should give the other races less than citizen status and they should be okay with it. According to your logic, since the US is 52% female, they should be majority in the government and in areas of power.

But they're not.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
USA is only 20% Christian? Less than 10% go to church more than once a year? Do your research - one example is Wikipedia states that this country is 78% Christian (http://wikitravel.org/en/United_States_of_America) and another site states WEEKLY church attendance is probably around 35%.

I'd like to know where you got your info.

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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
The US Census site reports 299,858,644 people in the US as of Sep 29, 2006.
http://www.census.gov/

Wikitravel is not Wikipedia, though "it was inspired by Wikipedia".
http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:About

"Public Law 94-521 prohibits us from asking a question on religious affiliation on a mandatory basis; therefore, the Bureau of the Census is not the source for information on religion."
http://www.census.gov/prod/www/religion.htm

Both the Wikitravela and Wikipedia articles on US religion quotes the ARIS report, which was "a private survey conducted in 2001 and mentioned in the Census Bureau's Statistical Abstract of the United States".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States#Religion

"The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2001 was based on a random digit-dialed telephone survey of 50,281 American residential households in the continental U.S.A (48 states). Respondents were asked to describe themselves in terms of religion with an open-ended question. Interviewers did not prompt or offer a suggested list of potential answers. Moreover, the self-description of respondents was not based on whether established religious bodies, institutions, churches, mosques or synagogues considered them to be members. Quite the contrary, the survey sought to determine whether the respondents themselves regarded themselves as adherents of a religious community. Subjective rather than objective standards of religious identification were tapped by the surveys."
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/population/religion/

Facts are fun. ;)
By: jaxon
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
"Wikipedia states that this country is 78% Christian"

Wikipedia is not a very reliable source all of the time since the articles can be written and/or edited by anyone
By: Stick-man
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
People, carry a salt shaker in your pockets at all times, that shit goes great with -everything-. 8)
By: Jiachi
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
No one is suggesting that the vegetarian ought to overrule the majority of carnivores and force them to eat only vegetables. The logic you are using here is skewed.

The message is that the vegetarian is being forced to eat meat.

2000 US Census states 299 million residents. Extrapolation of the data clearly shows that this country will be under 49% white and under 60% Christian by 2020. This indicates a disturbing trend to those who espouse your ideas.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
i don't know the actual statistics but apparently 3/4 of America consider themselves "Christian." But very few percent go to church, and even fewer believe that Jesus is the only Savior which is the basis of any denomination of Christianity. How many people are actually standing up for Christianity? not very many. but, as with the allegory of the vegetarian and the carnivores comes another point. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." So many cultural differences are tearing this nation apart. How can democracy protect the minority when the protection actually hinders America's growth? I understand people's cultures and ethnicities, but to encourage diverisity rather than unification will ultimately destroy America. Think about Ancient Greece, Rome, and the Islamic world. Encouraging ideals such as local loyalty, country loyalty other than the country the person lives in, and proudly holding on to your ideas that contradict most other people's is like adding gasoline to fire. If you want want to live in America, you need to live like an American. Freedom is really a privelage, not a right. Yes, embrace the minority, but when the minority's desires are put above the majority, humongous opposistion exists. Hello, South Africa is an example. People who don't learn their past are doomed to repeat it.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
As others have said, saying that the majority rule to the point that the majority get to force their beliefs on the others is wrong.

The movie NEVER stated that Christians (or steak eaters in your poor analogy) must become athiests (or east only veggies), it states that the vegetarians should be able to only eat veggies while the carnivals can eat only meat, and the omnivores can have both.

The problem here is that that the steak eaters are forcing their steak eating ways on those that don't like it, they're saying that those who don't eat steak aren't 'real citizens'. They are saying that in some backwards states, it's still impossible to take office without eating steak.

Man that's a crap analogy.

Basically, Christians should in no way FORCE their beliefs on others. We don't force our athiest views on you, so don't force your religious views on us.

And if you try and spin that back the other way and say 'well, evolution is sort of an atheist belief that you're saying we should teach instead of creationism' WRONG. Evolution is a scientific fact, gleaned from study done by scientists and others of all faiths, it's faith neautral.
By: spoco2
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
If you actually read what I wrote, the gist is:

-no one cares if you don't participate in chistianity.

-no one cares if you pray or not.

-no one cares if you are stupid and more than halve the U.S. population in your statesments.

-no one cares if you think my (or anyone else's) statements/analogies are bogus, invalid, or weak... I certainly don't.

Basically, no one gives a shite...to do anything, about anything, or for anything. So let's all get strapped in and cozy. Get ready to ride this country straight to hell. Welcome to the place, your city and mine, where "As long as I've got mine" is the philosophy at hand.

I don't care about you, just like you don't care about me...

Ain't life grand now..
By: Slyde
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
Wow, Christians don't give a fuck about anything. What a great religion.
By: lyzard
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
Wow, you just generalized hundreds of millions of people. What an intelligent comment.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
See, I was just trying....because he said that nobody....

Awww, what do I care? I'm an athiest.
By: lyzard
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
If you actually read what I wrote, the gist is:

-no one cares if you don't participate in chistianity.

-no one cares if you pray or not.

-no one cares if you are stupid and more than halve the U.S. population in your statesments.

-no one cares if you think my (or anyone else's) statements/analogies are bogus, invalid, or weak... I certainly don't.

Basically, no one gives a shite...to do anything, about anything, or for anything. So let's all get strapped in and cozy. Get ready to ride this country straight to hell. Welcome to the place, your city and mine, where "As long as I've got mine" is the philosophy at hand.

I don't care about you, just like you don't care about me...

Ain't life grand now..
By: Slyde
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
No one will stop your kids from praying before class. They just can't do it IN class. It is unfair to the teachers who may be of other faiths (if any) to be forced to pray to your God. Pray with your kids before you take them to school. Simple huh?

"The majority wins" hmmm... If eveyone else jumped off a bridge, would you?

BTW ethics have nothing to do with religion, that's morals.

The idea is to have steak AND veggies. It's way healthier!
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
were you talking bout my comment?
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
A democratic Republic is not about enforcing the majority, rather protecting the minority from the tyranny of a majority, as said by the shapers of the country.
Your meat/veggie analogy fails to hit any relevant point. In a democratic republic, none is to be denied their right to eat veggies or meat. The nine can eat their meat, and the one their veggies.
Making things equal for each and every soul is the purpose of our government's ideology. By your logic, Imagine this....
Suddenly, there is a huge influx of hindu peoples tot he US and all become citizens. They are now the majority. So, do you now have to just "wait out" or "walk out of the room" for the hindu call to prayer sanctioned by our schools and government? Or would you rather each person believe what they wish, but keep it to themselves and out of government? That makes it fair to all, no matter who happens to be in the majority. Can you comprehend the reasoning of this beyond the bias of your particular brand?
By: uakari
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
By: jaxon
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
Jaxon has a point, the original pilgrims left the UK to escape the religious divide between Catholic and Protestant churches started by Henry VIII, in fact it is often quoted that the pilgrims 'sailed to new lands to find religious freedom' implying they were going to find their own religion, not one that already existed.
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
Actually, the pilgrims first came so they could practice Calvinism, an extremely oppressive form of christianity. They moved out of England because they were being persecuted over there.

However, America was created many years later and the founding fathers had clearly stated that there would be no religion that the government of the USA would be based on.
By: Gunboat
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Re: Why do Atheists care about Religion?
Where did the founding fathers clearly state this? The first amendment states that Congress could not make laws establishing a religion, in other words the US would not follow the path of Britain with its Church of England. However, that doesn't mean that the founding fathers (at least the majority of them) weren't Christians and didn't operate on Christian principles. And the words "separation of church and state" do not appear anywhere in the constitution, they come from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptists who were afraid of losing thier freedom of religion. So this "wall of separation" was never a law or part of any official document, and the spirit of the statement had to do with protecting the church, rather than the state.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
From any perspective you are watching this from, I thought the movie was well done because it provoked thought on an otherwise out of sight issue.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
My fellow Americans;

Folks, we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.
By: jawrsh
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Specifically a federal republic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_republic
By: jaxon
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Just a few thoughts:

While the video was a good effort, I'm not sure if I agree with everything that was said. As an atheist, I could care less that I can't buy alcohol on Sundays or that a god is mentioned on our money. However, the video does do a good job in pointing out the prejudice against athiests in America. Somehow people have gotten it in their heads that athiests are immoral communists who want to destroy America. This couldn't be further from the truth. I find it interesting how the same people who are trying to spread freedom and democracy get angry when we try to exercise our own freedoms, whether that means freedom of religion (or lack thereof), freedom of speech, or freedom of thought.

On democracies and republics:

Saying that we live in a republic has no real meaning. Hell, China's official name is "The People's Republic of China," yet they are a country ruled by a communistic party, and its people have little to no say on how they are ruled. While we might also live in a republic, our form of government is a democracy, meaning that the power behind the government comes from the people of the country.

But democracy just doesn't mean rule by the majority. It also means protection of individuals' rights and freedoms, regardless of what the majority thinks. Even though, as an atheist, I might dislike religion, I fully and wholly support and respect others' freedom of religion and freedom of thought. It is your right as a human being to be able to believe in whatever you want to believe in, as long as those beliefs or convictions do not restrict the rights/freedoms of others. Anything less could be considered un-American, which should be a label placed on many of the people in the media and politics right now.

On "going with the flow":

If everyone followed the status quo and no one stood up against the majority, where would we be today? Without people like Martin Luther King Jr. who stand up for their beliefs, I'm sure the world we live in would be much different. Instead of having laws protecting our freedoms and rights, our democracy would be turned into mob rule, with no protection for the nay-sayers or minorities, whether they are a minority by color, sex, beliefs, or thought. Is that a world we want? I should think not. In fact, it is mostly due to the nay-sayers and minorities who have stood up for their rights and freedoms that we are the great country that we are today.

On the separation of church and state:

Frankly, it doesn't matter whether the founding fathers were Christians or if the words "separation of church and state" were used or not. The bottom line is that our constitution limits the government from endorsing or favoring religions. This is a good thing because it prevents the government from enacting laws which force the beliefs of one religion or another on America as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that many fundamentalist groups are rather willing to give up some of our most important rights (freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of thought) in exchange for using the US government as a means to "spread the word of god." Again, I can think of nothing more un-American than taking away the rights countless Americans have fought and died for.

And yet here we are. Conservative media outlets as well as politicians spout trash about how athiests (or anyone who disagrees with the conservative Right) are un-American. Frankly, it makes me sick to think that we might fall back into the pit when we have come so far.

On the basis of America:

Sorry guys, but America was not founded on Christian values. Having laws similar to the 10 Commandments (don't lie, don't kill, don't steal, etc) doesn't mean didly squat. All of these "rules" (except having only one god, of course) are extremely basic, common sense precepts that are needed for any society to function. Any society that allowed people to kill and steal at will could not stand. Just look at the basic laws in other free societies around the world, and you will find that they are very similar to those of America. And regardless of whether the founding fathers were Christians or not, it is clear that they wanted to create a society based on rational thought and discourse, not ruled by religious fervor.

And on a closing note:

Don't let others think for you. Listen to their arguments, but examine the facts and make decisions yourself. There is nothing worse than surrendering your freedom of thought to a leader (whether it is a politician or preacher).
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
I'm sure Dr. King would appreciate the comparison of the civil rights movement to the "plight" of aeithists in America. Choosing not to say "under God" when reciting the pledge and not reading "In God We Trust" when spending money is a lot different than getting lynched or not being allowed to go to the same public establishments as everyone else. When I see aeithist water fountains and aeithists being forced to ride in the back of the bus, then I'll feel sorry for you and fight for your rights. And who should I trust when it comes to what our nation was founded on? I think maybe George Washington (who definately was a Christian) and Patrick Henry who stated, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." I don't know how much clearer a statement one could provide. I suggest a book entitled "Original Intent" by David Barton, in it are hundreds of original quotations by the founding fathers stating what their beliefs were, in their own words.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Freedom of religion. We're given the freedom to practice our religions however we wish and the government is not permitted to interfere with religion or force it upon anyone.
However, there are some religions that's practices include killing members of other religions. This is murder, which is against the law. So the police arresting someone for murdering someone of another religion, could in fact be called interfering with their practicing of their religion.
The founding fathers basically should've written "all different denominations of Christianity have the freedom to worship and teach however they wish", cause that's really what they meant. At the time, everyone was a "Christian". It was just a matter of whether you were Catholic, Protestant, Calvanist, etc. The problems that arise now in the whole "seperation of Church and state" arguements are because of the ignorance on the Founding Father's part who didn't even think that over a hundred year later, not everyone in the US would go to church and pray or even believe in the existance of a God as they did.

Now, about the video.

The boyscouts is not government run. It's a privatized thing. They have the right to have their own rules. Or should the government be allowed to force the boyscouts to compromise for these few athiests?



Also, he kinda twisted things a bit:

"PENNSYLVANIA CONTSTITUTION
Article 1, Sec 4

No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of awards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust under this commonwealth."

That's not saying it's "illegal for him as an athiest" to hold that position. It's just clarifying that you won't be disqualified BECAUSE of your religios beliefs.



"UNTIL 1985" "IN THE STATE OF TEXAS" "POTS, PANS, AND WASHING MACHINES". First of all, it's not an issue. Secondly, it was in Texas, and it was about pointless things that you don't really buy on a daily basis. Who cares? What a whiner.

Also, the goverment was founded as a Christian nation. I'm not even going to comment on this one as it's an incredibly ignorant statement.

So many inaccuracies in his statements makes this video worthless. Such as George Washington not being a Christian. Psh.

"We're seeing religions attempting to control what is taught in our schools."
Oh, yes, I forgot. Atheist want them to teach THEORIES as fact because that's all atheists have to cling on to.

Also, according to this guy, there is no value in human life.

And national policy desicions being decided upon religios beliefs?
I'm sorry. Let's make it legal to murder people or steal from them, cause those laws against such are based on morals which are based on religion.



I'm really exhausted, so some of that may have been written differently than I intended. I'll clarify things when I'm in a proper state of mind.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
"it was about pointless things that you don't really buy on a daily basis. Who cares? What a whiner."

It's just like the British tax on tea. It allowed the British to exert their control over Americans.

And if it is such a pointless thing why doesn't the government allow you to buy these items whenever you want. All it is is christians in political positions enforcing religious based laws on citizens.

"Atheist want them to teach THEORIES as fact because that's all atheists have to cling on to."

Atheist want to teach theories as theories that are based on scientific fact. Science is based on fact. What christians want to teach is creationism or intelligent design which is based on what some people BELIEVED thousands of years ago.
By: Stick-man
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
I personally believe that neither "Intelligent Design" or "Evolution" should be taught in the public school system.
Only solid fact should be delivered in science classes.

As for the rules of which days you may buy certain objects, yes, they're stupid. But is it really worth complaining bout them?
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
If you don't want evolution to be taught in schools because you believe it does not occur in nature, then I would say your crazy. People have seen evolution occur in their lifetime. Viruse DNA evolves to resist vaccines sometimes every year. It has been seen in bacteria. Bone structures of dinosaurs comared to birds. Dinosaur fossils have been found with feathers. Fish evolved into amphibians. Even birds have been seen to evolve in to different species on different islands from the same common ansestor.

I believe evolution should be taught as a theory just like the Big Bang. But it is begining to seem more like fact than a theory. There is evidence everywhere.

Just because someone believes in evolution that doesn't mean they can't be religious. I have had past Biology teachers who strongly believed evolution occured but believed in a god(s) also. It is possible to believe both but you have to know the difference between false stories, myths, and parables in your religion and what really happened or what is really being said.
By: Stick-man
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
As I've said before:

"There are many true basic priniciples in the theories of evolution. Such as a creature's abilities to adapt and change to its surroundings. And many other things.
However, what is being taught in our school system is the most absurd and outdated forms of these theories that even the evolutionists who strongly believed in them before have recanted.
I don't like how such things as the 'Big Bang' and many other absurd ideas are being taught strictly as solid fact. "

If theory is to be presented in the public school system, then it should be presented STRICTLY as theory.
Also, other theories should be represented, weighed, and discussed as well.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
"what is being taught in our school system is the most absurd and outdated forms of these theories that even the evolutionists who strongly believed in them before have recanted."

I'd like to know what is being taught. Oh, wait I studied evolution ONE YEAR AGO. What was being taught then was the "THEORY of Evolution" . The theory was not absurd at all and it was not taught as fact.

"I don't like how such things as the 'Big Bang' and many other absurd ideas are being taught strictly as solid fact."

It is not taught as fact. I specifically remeber it being called the Big Bang THEORY. The theory is more real than what religions would have you believe. God created the world in seven days. Come on Christianity. You can do better than that.
By: Stick-man
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
I also take issue with your distaste of teaching theories as fact in the classroom.

Theories are scientifically-derived, meaning they have been rigorously and unbiasedly tested and reviewed by the scientific community. Any faults with the tested hypothesis (theory prior to peer review) would have been discovered and disputed before its acceptance as a theory. And generally speaking, theories are considered to be the best explanations available at the time for natural phenomenon.

As far as considering them fact, theories are based on a lot more facts (mechanisms, laws, etc.) than some half-baked belief (emphasis on belief) concerning how life originated. That a number of major scientific fields (biology, physiology, geology, genetics) all provide evidence and credit towards the theory of evolution is no coincidence.
By: Overmann
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
There are many true basic priniciples in the theories of evolution. Such as a creature's abilities to adapt and change to its surroundings. And many other things.
However, what is being taught in our school system is the most absurd and outdated forms of these theories that even the evolutionists who strongly believed in them before have recanted.
I don't like how such things as the 'Big Bang' and many other absurd ideas are being taught strictly as solid fact.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?

Some clarification:

Values are an arbitrary choice and have no right or wrong to them. It is what is considered normal.

Ethics are formulated by a community and change over time. Ethics are rhetorical. Ethics require argument/deliberation because we must weigh what the appropriate values are and how they should be employed in this situation. Ethics are often derived from morals.

Morals are understood as universal values, applicable to everyone in every situation. Often they are construed as god-given or at least as something that cannot be altered: moral judgments are good for all time. Morality establishes values as transparent, immutable, and self-interpreting. That is, either something is moral or immoral. The judgment is obvious and clear.

Morality makes it very difficult for one to participate in a community with others who do not share your values. Ethics on the other hand allow for the negotiation of differences.

If laws are based on morals how can they change over time? Wouldn’t a solider be charged with murder if the law was based on a moral belief?

Do you have the right to kill someone who is trying to kill you? Is this immoral or unethical? It would be considered immoral under the Ten Commandments. You would not be charged under U.S. law. It's called justifiable homicide.

It is also false to assume atheists have no morals. Instead of I don’t kill people because I am afraid of going to hell; I say I do not kill people because I think it is better for humans to live in a world without murder. I ask not for a reward other than the betterment of humankind.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Just to clarify, the commandment to which you were refering states "Thou shalt not murder". The Old Testament law makes exceptions for justifiable homicide as well as killing in times of war and capital punishment. Also the Christian religion does not teach that obeying commandments or other rules determines whether a person goes to Heaven or Hell when he or she dies. Christianity teaches that all people have sinned and therefore all need the forgiveness of God through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. A Christian, one who doesn't base their theology on what some televangelist or politician states but rather what Jesus taught, does moral things in order to lead a more Christlike life. The goal of this is much the same as yours, the betterment of humankind. I don't expect you to believe what I believe, but I wanted to make it known that not all Christians are like Jerry Fallwell and co. and that the truth of the Christian religion is that it teaches tollerance, love, and respect for all people, something that is all too often forgotten by many people, especially Christians themselves.

Regarding laws being based on morals, that is true of some laws, but not of others. It is wrong to commit murder, that is the willful killing of another human being in instances other than war, capital punishment, or self defense. That is a moral statement. It is morally wrong to rape someone. Degrees of crimes such as murder that deal with the severity of punishment are also a moral concept that can be found in ancient Hebrew law from the Old Testament books of the law such as Leviticus.

I'm sure this debate between Believers and Atheists will go on for a while as it has been for thousands of years. That is because there is no proof that God exists and there is no proof that God does not exist. Were either side able to offer undeniable proof for their beliefs or lack thereof then the opposition would disappear over time and their beliefs would be no more held to than the idea of a flat Earth being orbited by the Sun. Until human beings are able to define God as a variable in an experient and observe the entirety of existance, the possibility of God cannot be proven wrong. And until God makes his presence known by descending onto a mountain top with a mighty shout, His existance cannot be proven either. As for me, though, if I die and it turns out that I was wrong, the sum of human thought and potential is nothing more than a series of biochemical reactions that terminate upon death and the only thing waiting on the other side is nonexistance, then I have really lost nothing for the same end would have been waiting for me no matter what doctine or antidoctrine I had devoted my life to. On the other hand, if the Athiest is wrong, and there is something more to life that science and technology allows us to currently observe, if there is a God who rewards loyalty then he does have something to lose.

In closing, I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I simply explained them here for anyone who reads them to accept or reject as he or she so chooses. I respect everyone else's beliefs and their to worship God in a way similar or different than mine or not at all. To theEDUCATOR while our beliefs are different, I respect your morals and the motivations behind them. Maybe someday, such morality, wherever its source may come from, will prevail and each and every one of us can learn and grow to be better men and women.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Thank you. :) Well stated.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
In free societies freedom of religion is held to be an ideal. To allow one religion preference over the other is to go against this ideal, and thus freedom.

In order to allow your kids to pray in school all other forms of religious beliefs, formal or informal, must also be given that choice. Furthermore non-beliefs must also be given similar rights. (Maybe to renounce God or embrace their personal beliefs.) How do you accomplish that?

The same holds true for all other concessions to a religious group.

Simpler explained that way huh?
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Why does everything have to be fair?

At least we don't have it as bad as Malaysia where only Muslims can run for any political position and if you convert to Christianity your family can beat you to death. Heh.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
"Why does everything have to be fair?"
If you type in Fairness in Wik you will be redirected to the page labeled "Justice"

Yes, I am glad I do not lie in Malaysia too!

The vast majority of science is theory. Theory that is based on facts and held to be most probable by the majority of scientists. Creative design has elements of belief and is not widely accepted. Any teacher that presents the theory of evolution as a fact is wrong and biased. It is a theory.

I believe if the majority want to include an element of religion in schools it should be done. They would have to include many differing viewpoints and look at them in a critical manner.

Philosophy class!!
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Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
The Thought of an "absintee landlord" and therefore a view of a non existing God definetly persuades many to think that we are simply animals, With emotions and imbalenced behaviors and the only difference between us and chickens, monkeys and cattle is a sudden surplus of neurons. Leaving many questions unanswered for athiests?


questions to think about for an athiest


• Does an athiest think that what Hitler did was right or wrong?

Answer- it doesn't really matter because Athiests don't believe in right or wrong, remember an athiest believes that we are no different from animals and therefore killing each other is fine to do, we have no God no Moral values no ethics and no real feelings to worry about. We are no different then Animals.
"RIGHT AND WRONG DON'T EXIST FOR AN ATHIEST"
scientist can't tell you what right and wrong are, you can't lable it or place a color on it...SO WHAT IS IT? instinct? no..
Right and wrong was placed inside you by your creator...like it or not..so this whole video about caring doesn't stand up for your beliefs, cause "AN ATHIEST DOESN"T GIVE A SHIT" you shouldn't care anyways, you just live and die , we're no different from animals remember.


• Can an Athiest "Love"

Answer- NO, If your an athiest you would dismiss the whole idea and preception of love. You can describe it as a chemical reaction to the brain producing a relaxed and calmning state to the brain. So it would be ludacris to hear and Athiest come home to his wife and say " hay hunny I love you" because there is no God. Athiests believe in science and naturalistic existence. This whole Idea of Love doesn't exist? its just a surplus of neorons to the brain. So nothing really matters cause we shouldn't have any attactchments..we just live and die...right?


get my point? If your an athiest I really hope you re-consider your thoughts, and try to understand the human and scientific prespective at a broader level, solve the puzzles in your own sweet time, examine yourself and your soul? Keep reading and keep trying to find answeres, don't just close the chapter and procalim to be an athiest. I know cause I use to be one.......

I wish you luck in your quest but actually you shouldn't care..cause you don't believe in anything remember...your an athiest..right?
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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
What kind of idiocy is this?

Atheists (myself included) simply deny the existence of God. Some (don't include me in this list) believe in a supernatural power, though not a supreme being. None espouse what you've enumerated.

Come now. Without religion, we cannot have values and it would be impossible to know right from wrong? We cannot choose to live in a society peacefully? Hogwash! More than 20% of the US prison population considers themselves to be evangelical Christians. Less than 1% are atheists.

Come now. Atheists cannot love? Stating as much is nothing less than narrow mindedness.
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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
"We are no different then Animals."

We are very different. The ability for consciousness and Meta-cognition for example. Not to mention the ability for critical thought. If you are not thinking critically of your action you are merely reacting and thus are not exerting any free will.

To assume that all atheists share the biological perspective is false. Many other viewpoints are still held true by various people. Humanist view humankind as having an core of underlying good the influences all human behavior.

Still the biological perspective does not rule out love of the importance of love in the human condition. To assume so is absurd.


BTW You can be dualist without holding any other religious beliefs.

"Athiests don't believe in right or wrong" [sic]

YOU ARE ABSURD!! To assume this is true is to assume that people can not do anything other than for their own self interest. Either you believe that people do good things for the benefit of humankind or you believe that people do good things based on their desire to get into heaven. That would be a very selfish, uncaring, and "evil" viewpoint to hold. A true Christian MUST believe that all people are capable of goodness…Even atheists.

I give up on you.
Try reading a book once and a while. (one that was written in the last century)

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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
"ATHEIST," ffs. From "atheism." Both nouns, not adjectives. An "athiest" would be one who is the most "athy." I'll ignore your legion other spelling errors.

Back to the point: You assert that all meaning, emotion, morals, etc, derive from God. You back this up by stating that the Godless man, the atheist, does not share in these things by virtue of his Godlessness.

Explaining the "how" of love does in no way diminish the importance or impact of love, or any other emotion.

Where do you get this crap? Who told you atheists don't give a shit? Other Christians? Perhaps you should consider the source.

If "your" a Chrisian I really hope you reconsider your intolerance.

By: Grampa
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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
Our elders hold great wisdom.
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why do you not believe in God? If the Truth is clearly placed before you?
Fact
Secular liberals have strived hard to paint a picture of Jesus Christ which is not faithful to the Person and message we encounter in the New Testament. The Jesus that they have attempted to present to the world is a weak, mortal man. A great moral teacher, but nothing more.

If one reads the New Testament, we encounter a Jesus who claims the authority to forgive sins; who claims equality with the Father; who claims that salvation is through Him and Him alone. True, He is a man. But He is also God. The great miracle of the Incarnation: Almighty God became a man.

Why have modernists so viciously attempted to eradicate this image of Jesus? Because if the biblical evidence is true, then it means we have a Judge whom we must one day give an account to. It means we must repent and change our lives from rebellion and disobedience to complete and total subjection to Jesus Christ.

It means we must admit the reality of moral absolutes; the existence of heaven and also hell; a judgment of works. No wonder modernists must attempt to present to us a purely mortal Jesus.

if you can accomplish your desired task, then humanity no longer has to worry about taking accountability for its sins and offenses against an All-Loving, All-Merciful God. We can all just live happily ever after in whatever sins we happen to desire without the promises of inheriting an eternal heavenly kingdom for believing in Christ and living in obedience to His will; and without the threat of suffering everlasting punishment in hell for willingly choosing to say “No” to Him.

What did the pagans say?
Pagan historians and writers who lived around the time of Christ clearly had things to say about Him.

lets Take Cornelius Tacitus for example. He was a Roman historian who lived from 55-120 AD. Some have considered him to be the greatest historian of ancient Rome. In his famous work Annals, written in 116 AD
he makes mention of the death of Jesus and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

What Tacitus reveals to us is that Jesus did in fact exist, and that He was sentenced to the Roman death penalty. He also reveals that the gospel of Jesus Christ had already spread to imperial Rome by the time of the early 2nd century. But there is more, as well. Though not conclusive, it seems probably that Tacitus even makes a possible reference to the Christian claim that Jesus had resurrected from the dead. Upon mentioning that Christ was crucified under Pilate, he writes, and I quote “But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again.” What superstition is he referring to? Many believe it is the claim of Jesus’ Bodily Resurrection.

Another pagan historian is Thallus, who wrote around the year 52 AD. This would be only a mere 20 some years since the death and resurrection of Christ. The histories written by Thallus have unfortunately faded with the passing of time; however, we do possess fragments of what he wrote thanks to the preservation of other writers. One of these is Julius Africanus, a Christian whose works are dated around 221 AD. Africanus quotes from Thallus’ work in his day. What is interesting to our current discussion is that Thallus makes reference to the darkness which occurred at the time of Jesus’ death. Thallus calls it a solar eclipse, noting that a darkness enveloped the land during the late afternoon hours when Jesus died on the cross, while Africanus points out that this would be an impossibility since eclipses do not happen on full moons. Either way, Jesus’ existence and death are stated as fact by Thallus. As read by Africanus, “Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun– unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died).”

Suetonius, a court official under Hadrian and annalist of the Imperial House, writing in 120 AD. In his work Life of Claudius, he notes, “As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.” This event is actually recorded by Luke in Acts 18:2, which historically took place in 49 AD. It is noteworthy to state that Suetonius was writing about events between the late 40s-60s AD. In his Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius makes mention of Christians, calling them “a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.” Like we saw in Tacitus above, Suetonius is most likely referring to the claim of the Resurrection here, calling it a “new and mischievous superstition.”

Pliny also gives us a hint as to the worship of early Christians. He writes, “They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.” Notice that through all of these writings, the existence of Christ is assumed and never denied.

one of my favorites is
The letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, dated around 70 AD, which is in my opinion one of the strongest non-Christian, pagan proofs for the existence of Jesus emanating from the first century.Mara was certainly not a Christian (in fact, later in his letterwhih cwas written to his son from prison he indicates he is a polytheist), but he clearly did not question the existence of Jesus Christ.

In Conclusion
Whatever else you may want to believe about Christianity, the bottom line is that we can doubt this sure fact: Jesus Christ truly existed. There is no possible way to deal with all the facts just presented from pagan, Jewish, and Christian sources and to conclude that Jesus is just a myth. To do so is to commit historical murder. Those who hold to the erroneous idea that Jesus never existed do so not based on historical, factual evidence, but due to their own agendas, whatever those may be. Even if someone were to, for the sake of argument, say that Josephus could not be trusted due to possible Christian interpolation, what then of the Talmud, Tacitus, Lucian, Suetonius, Thallus, Mara, etc. etc. etc.? And even that assertion regarding Josephus is doubted by most serious scholars. The consensus of scholarly opinion is that Josephus’ account can be trusted as providing true historical information regarding the existence of Jesus Christ as a real human being.

So what now? With the wealth of historical information that we currently have access to, one must objectively admit at least this much: Jesus truly existed. The question now revolves around whether or not we are willing to accept His claim to deity, or if we wish to just shrug Him off as nothing more than just a mere mortal philosopher. We must make the crucial decision: either He was a liar, a lunatic, or He is Lord. Realize that we can not get to heaven on our power. We are sinners in need of a Savior. Jesus Christ hung on a cross 2,000 years ago, and the debt He paid was a debt that we’d never be able to pay ourselves.



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Re: why do you not believe in God? If the Truth is clearly placed before you?
I am not a modernist, but rather a post-modernist...Or possibly a pre-post-post-modernist.

I question no one else’s beliefs but my own.

I do however question the removal of human rights, and the interference of the state in religion. No one religion has the right to place itself over another. I just want church and state to be separate. My ancestors came to North America in the 1700's to escape a religious state. I will not let people turn this continent into one.

To further clarify I am not an atheist, but rather I am agnostic. The answer will never be known.

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Re: why do you not believe in God? If the Truth is clearly placed before you?
This is one of the myriad of things that drove me from the church:

Insane, off the wall, myopic, meaningless Christian rhetoric.

Though some of my best friends and biggest role models are devoted Christians, there is always the majority that is just like lenguaking.

People did not read what you wrote, mostly for the fact that you are so out of the realm of reality that you cannot, and more sadly, WILL not be able to relate to the world within which the rest of us live.

I'd be tempted to return to Christianity if someone could just explain it from a prespective that does require being so God damned skewed.

And therein lies the rub.
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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
Firstly, it's very probable that everyone has an intrinsic sense of right and wrong. We attach meaning to otherwise meaningless events. Two atoms meet under temperature and pressure, and they come together. The end. Of course nothing holds intrinsic meaning. We attach meaning to everything. We correlate our physical arousal with otherwise meaningless events, thereby giving them meaning, in our heads that is. So regardless of what ethics we've been fed by prophets and philosophers, we know right and wrong. We may get things mixed, as often happens when confusing correlation for causation, but we all know some sort of good and bad, right and wrong. I'm sure you know this, and we're only taunting Atheists in their folly.

Next, it's reasonable that Atheists do not believe in the word "love", with all its vague notional baggage. We've come to attach a lot of abstract ideas to the word love. But it boils down to mere physical sensations - to biology, to chemistry, and ultmately to physics. Every normally functioning human being experiences love on a physical level. I'm sure you know this, and were once again teasing those silly Atheists.

But you're confused. You expound upon what Atheists believe, but it's really what you believe Atheists to believe. You're spouting off your conception of the Atheist, which may be totally false, and overly generalized at that.

Not only that, but the entire point of your comment was to get Atheists to rethink their position. That's fine, and I think everyone should rethink their various positions in idealogical space at regular intervals. However, in telling Atheists to to consult reason when rethinking their positions, you could pose that same question to the many religious people who deign to use reason, and warp it when they do. Bananas made by God to have to have a fucking pull-tab? Everyone should consult reason at some point, and come to think of it, I have no problems whatsoever with the purpose of your comment. True Atheists should attack with reason their partial deference to science just as much as people of Religion should attack their beliefs with reason.

Which brings me to Atheists. Slipping to one side or the other on the subject of a God is a belief no matter what. There's no incontrovertibel evidence for either side. So far, there are only inferences on both sides. Everyone, and damnit I mean everyone should recalibrate the yardstick with which they size up the world for change. Minority or Majority aside, people need to look at what they're doing to their fellow human beings, which they currently seem to be doing in the name of "You've got yours and I've got mine."

I am not an Atheist. I'm only mildly educated. My mind has a small capacity for facts and dates and the names of great people. Dialiectic doesn't come easily. However, I know that I give a damn about what I do to other people. As a middle-class American I feel like shit all the time for the clothes I wear, the men who groom my campus, all the riches I possess, and my inability to really do anything about the terrible gradient. I do what I can, though, and I absolutely refuse to hold any belief whose validity I can't explain. Nobody knows one way or the other whether there's a goddamn God in the universe, or whatever lies beyond it, and acting in a way that has a significant impact on other people, based on such dubious beliefs - that's wrong. If an idea forces sacrifices from other people for one's own sake, and that one can't explain why out of forumulations of their own reason and observable fact - that's wrong. Even if we did formulate beliefs out of fact, it's all tenuous, and we'd have to go back on ourselves, mumbling apologies all the time. But at least there's reason in that.

Anyway, we're at a standstill. Nobody's going to give up their religion, or Atheism, and asking people to do so would be doing it based on a belief itself - the belief that we should live according to the well-being of all, based on positivism - and so according to my reasoning it would be wrong as well. But if we could all hunker down for perhaps the last big personal sacrifice, the biggest of all, the world really might be a more friendly place.

If you think what I've written is totally absurd and a monumental demonstration of ignorant pontification, I apologize, for my beliefs.
By: Wondahboy
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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
I, sir, think you are wrong. But what do I know: I'm just an athiest. OOPS! Did I say that?
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Re: Athiest shouln't care about anything you son't believe in anything
TLDR
By: Kilroy
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
I'll only comment on one bit of the video, as the rest is rather unworth the time.

I support the state laws restricting atheists from holding office, I know I wouldn't want a godless heathen without the basic intelligence to at least recognize intelligent design, by whatever source he attributes it to, in any position of importance.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Ahh A beautiful example of christian love.
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
“Don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church” and other atheist quotes.

http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/viewQuotes.php
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Re: Why Do Atheists Care About Religion?
Did God create Man or did Man create God ? This is the main question
By: D3NIS
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