Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
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Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word >>
Tim Wise is a white anti-racist writer and activist in the U.S., who started giving lectures in 1995 at over 500 college campuses across the US. He has trained a multitude of teachers, corporate employees, non-profit organizations and law enforcement officers in methods for addressing and dismantling racism in their institutions.
Jan 23, 2013 9:39 AM
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
Tarantino movies would lose some of their bite methinks!
Sorry Mr Wise, censorship is wrong and a prohibition on words would work as well as it did on alcohol.
Sorry Mr Wise, censorship is wrong and a prohibition on words would work as well as it did on alcohol.
By: Fangface74
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
Yes I can talk about your mama. Seinfeld can make redneck jokes too. Stay away from comedy clubs if you are dictating what can and can't be made fun of you fuck.
You are not an authority on funny so don't Can't believe my beloved milk and cookies has this rated amazing.
You are not an authority on funny so don't Can't believe my beloved milk and cookies has this rated amazing.
By: sonicjohnson
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
You white folks are missing the point, one that I believe to be solid; White people should not use the word.
By: jetblac
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
No, you are missing the point.
Let me begin by saying that I rarely say nigger/nigga/etc. About the only time I use the word is when I am performing a rendition of various rap/hip-hop songs (usually stuff from the late 80s or early 90s). Aside from that, I pretty much never use the word, unless I'm around people who know me and understand why and how I'm using the word. In other words, people who understand the context of using that word.
And that's the important point here: context. Context is everything. Are there instances where "nigger" is used in a hateful, discriminatory manner? Absolutely, and people who use the word in that manner should be called out and publicly shamed. Are there other ways to use the word without spreading hate and ignorance? Of course. However, instead of exerting the minimal amount of critical thinking required to examine the context of a word's use, people like yourself and Tim Wise have instead decided to childishly censor a word from existence. In doing so, you have given this word power over yourselves, cowering sheepishly in the same way wizards and witches in Harry Potter books are afraid to say the name "Voldemort" as if merely uttering the word, regardless of context, can cause suffering. This is silly.
Moreover, the claim that non-blacks should not be able to use the word is not only discriminatory on its face, but it is indicative of even worse prejudices and attitudes upon deeper inspection. Tim Wise makes the point that this blatant act of discrimination (blacks can use a word but whites cannot) is justified due to its history of use of by white people as a means to denigrate black people. Such reasoning is only acceptable if one also believes that individuals should be responsible for the sins of their ancestors (so-called "sins of the father") or the sins of their race. The former is a way of moral thinking that most modern societies have outright rejected (and rightly so), and the latter way of thinking is discriminatory and racist. So no, you have no right or moral imperative to prevent me from using a word based on my skin color. If you think you do, then you are a racist. Congratulations.
This discussion leads to a bigger issue: individualism versus communal identity. Though my skin is white, I have never thought of myself as belonging to a "white" community, nor have I ever wanted to. I value my individualism, and I don't want anyone else making decisions for me or speaking for me. I want to be judged for my own actions and words, not those of other people who share my skin color. Though I am sure the concept of a "white community" exists in some places in the US (perhaps in the South), I still find it to be a rare and strange occurrence. I can understand how certain economic or social factors might cause people to band together based on race, such as people who live in poverty or first-generation immigrants who cannot speak the common language. However, I find the fact that many middle-class blacks still talk about a "black community" disturbing. Not only is such a concept out-of-place in a modern society, but it leads to prejudicial attitudes based on one's skin color, such as preventing white people from saying a word, as shown in this video, while preventing any judgement on its use by black people, regardless of context. It also prevents any honest and open discussion about social problems ("you're not a member of the community, so it's none of your business").
I cannot help but think that black people who promote the "black community" have completely missed the point of the civil rights movement. People were not fighting for the right of their racial group to live in seclusion with equal rights, but to live, work, and go to school with people of other colors and backgrounds and to be judged individually by their character, rather than communally by the color of their skin. Dr. King said it better than I can:
"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.
....
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
....
I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers.
...
And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
Instead, many people are still stuck on the idea of "separate but equal", but history has shown that this maxim is false.
Let me begin by saying that I rarely say nigger/nigga/etc. About the only time I use the word is when I am performing a rendition of various rap/hip-hop songs (usually stuff from the late 80s or early 90s). Aside from that, I pretty much never use the word, unless I'm around people who know me and understand why and how I'm using the word. In other words, people who understand the context of using that word.
And that's the important point here: context. Context is everything. Are there instances where "nigger" is used in a hateful, discriminatory manner? Absolutely, and people who use the word in that manner should be called out and publicly shamed. Are there other ways to use the word without spreading hate and ignorance? Of course. However, instead of exerting the minimal amount of critical thinking required to examine the context of a word's use, people like yourself and Tim Wise have instead decided to childishly censor a word from existence. In doing so, you have given this word power over yourselves, cowering sheepishly in the same way wizards and witches in Harry Potter books are afraid to say the name "Voldemort" as if merely uttering the word, regardless of context, can cause suffering. This is silly.
Moreover, the claim that non-blacks should not be able to use the word is not only discriminatory on its face, but it is indicative of even worse prejudices and attitudes upon deeper inspection. Tim Wise makes the point that this blatant act of discrimination (blacks can use a word but whites cannot) is justified due to its history of use of by white people as a means to denigrate black people. Such reasoning is only acceptable if one also believes that individuals should be responsible for the sins of their ancestors (so-called "sins of the father") or the sins of their race. The former is a way of moral thinking that most modern societies have outright rejected (and rightly so), and the latter way of thinking is discriminatory and racist. So no, you have no right or moral imperative to prevent me from using a word based on my skin color. If you think you do, then you are a racist. Congratulations.
This discussion leads to a bigger issue: individualism versus communal identity. Though my skin is white, I have never thought of myself as belonging to a "white" community, nor have I ever wanted to. I value my individualism, and I don't want anyone else making decisions for me or speaking for me. I want to be judged for my own actions and words, not those of other people who share my skin color. Though I am sure the concept of a "white community" exists in some places in the US (perhaps in the South), I still find it to be a rare and strange occurrence. I can understand how certain economic or social factors might cause people to band together based on race, such as people who live in poverty or first-generation immigrants who cannot speak the common language. However, I find the fact that many middle-class blacks still talk about a "black community" disturbing. Not only is such a concept out-of-place in a modern society, but it leads to prejudicial attitudes based on one's skin color, such as preventing white people from saying a word, as shown in this video, while preventing any judgement on its use by black people, regardless of context. It also prevents any honest and open discussion about social problems ("you're not a member of the community, so it's none of your business").
I cannot help but think that black people who promote the "black community" have completely missed the point of the civil rights movement. People were not fighting for the right of their racial group to live in seclusion with equal rights, but to live, work, and go to school with people of other colors and backgrounds and to be judged individually by their character, rather than communally by the color of their skin. Dr. King said it better than I can:
"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.
....
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
....
I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers.
...
And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
Instead, many people are still stuck on the idea of "separate but equal", but history has shown that this maxim is false.
By: chronomitch
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
First of all, I think the video was half-moronic. I... he said some really dumb things, but I don't feel that I really agree with you either.
Relevant idea nr1 : "can't we all just agree to rob the word of it's power by sticking to a certain strategy of use?"
I read your whole statement and I don't recall you actually acknowledging that a great many people are still alive today (arguably the majority of the white and black population?) who lived during a time when the word was still commonly used as a stick to beat inferiority into a whole class/race of people. In other words, your claim that censorship gave the word power is complete fabrication. The word gained power through enslavement, then domestic terrorism leading to many decades of de facto exploitation and segregation/submission policed by the state and yet more technically illegal terror. This is also something that transcends generations. Black grandma tells stories to her children and grandchildren. It takes time to erase or let go of an identity and the suspicions etc. that come with it. Also, the struggle of blacks is nowhere near over. An analogous belief : men might like to believe that women have all the equality they need, but it just ain't so. So don't give me any of that "discrimination goes both ways" crap. If some amount of PC bullshit is required to get to where we want to be, then so be it.
Relevant idea nr 2 : not all discrimination is problematic.
Some repetition here. Please don't complain about being discriminated against or any variation on that theme. The version of racism that is contained in the notion that people with a white complexion probably shouldn't use the word in anything but a historical context is just not at all racist when compared to the weight of history and the enduring forces that plague black people in America today. Arguing that such minor collective self-censorship can do anything to increase racism in either direction is a laughable one as far as I'm concerned.
Relevant idea nr. 3 : discrimination is potentially useful. (if we're all so highly rational and open minded, then perhaps the truth of this statement can be considered)
Relevant idea nr.4 : young people ought to show some respect for the pain/stuggle of their parents; this includes young black people. Of course those that don't give a fuck, won't give a fuck. So there's that.
Conclusion : We're not in some enlightened age or something. Pretending that we are is pretty problematic IMO. There will always be words of power. For instance : cunt, coon, cracker, spick, kike, wetback... They're mean words. That is why they sting. 'Nigger' stings a little more, because of the weight and the enduring nature of a brutal history. Just think of the word 'Jew'. An appropriately acceptable, though very dangerous word, which isn't fair, but that's life; that's history. Since black people aren't going to collectively 'take back' the word nigger any time soon, it does indeed seem to be advisable to not use it, especially for those 'devilish' white people and especially not within earshot of older black people. Why would anyone even want to, except to be 'cool', 'provocative' or to sell records?
Oh, so I reject your tyranny of individualism. I reject it because too many people know too much and feel too strongly. Even if there were no history, our brains are programmed to think in terms of collectivities. It's a quasi-paradox we can't escape. We can't limit racist thinking unless we acknowledge that it will forever be a part of us; and even more intensely if we don't right some of the wrongs of the past, which requires us to respect racist categories or logic for a little while longer.
Relevant idea nr1 : "can't we all just agree to rob the word of it's power by sticking to a certain strategy of use?"
I read your whole statement and I don't recall you actually acknowledging that a great many people are still alive today (arguably the majority of the white and black population?) who lived during a time when the word was still commonly used as a stick to beat inferiority into a whole class/race of people. In other words, your claim that censorship gave the word power is complete fabrication. The word gained power through enslavement, then domestic terrorism leading to many decades of de facto exploitation and segregation/submission policed by the state and yet more technically illegal terror. This is also something that transcends generations. Black grandma tells stories to her children and grandchildren. It takes time to erase or let go of an identity and the suspicions etc. that come with it. Also, the struggle of blacks is nowhere near over. An analogous belief : men might like to believe that women have all the equality they need, but it just ain't so. So don't give me any of that "discrimination goes both ways" crap. If some amount of PC bullshit is required to get to where we want to be, then so be it.
Relevant idea nr 2 : not all discrimination is problematic.
Some repetition here. Please don't complain about being discriminated against or any variation on that theme. The version of racism that is contained in the notion that people with a white complexion probably shouldn't use the word in anything but a historical context is just not at all racist when compared to the weight of history and the enduring forces that plague black people in America today. Arguing that such minor collective self-censorship can do anything to increase racism in either direction is a laughable one as far as I'm concerned.
Relevant idea nr. 3 : discrimination is potentially useful. (if we're all so highly rational and open minded, then perhaps the truth of this statement can be considered)
Relevant idea nr.4 : young people ought to show some respect for the pain/stuggle of their parents; this includes young black people. Of course those that don't give a fuck, won't give a fuck. So there's that.
Conclusion : We're not in some enlightened age or something. Pretending that we are is pretty problematic IMO. There will always be words of power. For instance : cunt, coon, cracker, spick, kike, wetback... They're mean words. That is why they sting. 'Nigger' stings a little more, because of the weight and the enduring nature of a brutal history. Just think of the word 'Jew'. An appropriately acceptable, though very dangerous word, which isn't fair, but that's life; that's history. Since black people aren't going to collectively 'take back' the word nigger any time soon, it does indeed seem to be advisable to not use it, especially for those 'devilish' white people and especially not within earshot of older black people. Why would anyone even want to, except to be 'cool', 'provocative' or to sell records?
Oh, so I reject your tyranny of individualism. I reject it because too many people know too much and feel too strongly. Even if there were no history, our brains are programmed to think in terms of collectivities. It's a quasi-paradox we can't escape. We can't limit racist thinking unless we acknowledge that it will forever be a part of us; and even more intensely if we don't right some of the wrongs of the past, which requires us to respect racist categories or logic for a little while longer.
By: wadadde
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
1)
Yes, you are correct that the word does hold weight, but censoring the word from existence and disallowing the word to be said IN ANY CONTEXT gives it even more weight and power. I'm sorry, but I take a moral stance against censorship and a stance for freedom of speech. I would much rather true racists be able to speak their minds so that we know who they are and can rebuke them as necessary (by using our own freedom of speech), instead of ignoring it. Censorship doesn't get rid of the thing which concerns you. It merely sends it underground where it can fester. The solution to the "problem" of free speech is simply more free speech.
2)
I completely disagree. You are using an extremely dangerous tool (discrimination) to try to socially engineer an end to racism. It's a ridiculous suggestion that this will work, for numerous reasons. Firstly, the people who actually invented the rules of PC aren't poor blacks, they were (and still are) rich, elitist whites with little to no connection with the people they are supposedly helping, so many times the rules of PC don't make sense or are harmful in and of themselves. For example, I know many people who think the term "African-American" is discriminatory in and of itself because white people aren't called "White-American." They actually prefer being called "black." Secondly, discriminating against people who have had absolutely no hand in the problems which faced black people in the past does nothing to foster good race relations. If anything, it makes people feel like they are being unfairly punished for something they aren't responsible for, which only antagonizes them. You're not going to win any allies that way.
Do you know what does work to end racism? It's simple, really, and I've already given you the answer: more speech. Instead of acting like a self-righteous activist who hands down and enforces PC rules to the uneducated masses, simply get someone to talk and explain why the words you find so offensive are so hurtful in the first place. Hell, this is exactly the reason why I toned down the use of "faggot":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-55wC5dEnc
3)
See above.
4)
I have great respect for civil rights leaders who fought for the innate freedoms which every human being is born with but sometimes denied by their governments. That's why I'm so against restricting those same freedoms in some kind of ill-conceived attempt at social engineering or punitive measure against people who have nothing to do with the crimes of the past.
Conclusion)
We're a lot closer to that age of enlightening than you think. Younger generations, including mine, are not trapped by the same ways of thinking that older generations are. At no time in history is the common man more empowered to choose his way of life or remake his life in the way he sees fit, rather than being forced into social roles demanded by the tribalism of the past. While it is true that collectivization is still strong, we are free to choose how and why we associate with other people, instead of simply being bound to simple associations based on race. For example, last night I hung out with about 30 other people of varying races, genders, and ages due to a shared interest and we all had a great time. I work on a daily basis with people of other races, and we all get along fine and work together well. My landlord is a first-generation immigrant from Iran, and he's just about the kindest, hardest working man you could be blessed with meeting. In all of these cases, people come from different cultures and walks of life, yet we are somehow able to live, work, and laugh together without the PC police constantly breathing down our necks, telling us how evil the white man is and charging us with racism is we don't follow the rules they made up. While race may not be completely irrelevant for my generation, it takes a backseat to pretty much anything else. It won't keep me from working with a competent coworker, and it won't keep me from making a friend.
Yes, you are correct that the word does hold weight, but censoring the word from existence and disallowing the word to be said IN ANY CONTEXT gives it even more weight and power. I'm sorry, but I take a moral stance against censorship and a stance for freedom of speech. I would much rather true racists be able to speak their minds so that we know who they are and can rebuke them as necessary (by using our own freedom of speech), instead of ignoring it. Censorship doesn't get rid of the thing which concerns you. It merely sends it underground where it can fester. The solution to the "problem" of free speech is simply more free speech.
2)
I completely disagree. You are using an extremely dangerous tool (discrimination) to try to socially engineer an end to racism. It's a ridiculous suggestion that this will work, for numerous reasons. Firstly, the people who actually invented the rules of PC aren't poor blacks, they were (and still are) rich, elitist whites with little to no connection with the people they are supposedly helping, so many times the rules of PC don't make sense or are harmful in and of themselves. For example, I know many people who think the term "African-American" is discriminatory in and of itself because white people aren't called "White-American." They actually prefer being called "black." Secondly, discriminating against people who have had absolutely no hand in the problems which faced black people in the past does nothing to foster good race relations. If anything, it makes people feel like they are being unfairly punished for something they aren't responsible for, which only antagonizes them. You're not going to win any allies that way.
Do you know what does work to end racism? It's simple, really, and I've already given you the answer: more speech. Instead of acting like a self-righteous activist who hands down and enforces PC rules to the uneducated masses, simply get someone to talk and explain why the words you find so offensive are so hurtful in the first place. Hell, this is exactly the reason why I toned down the use of "faggot":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-55wC5dEnc
3)
See above.
4)
I have great respect for civil rights leaders who fought for the innate freedoms which every human being is born with but sometimes denied by their governments. That's why I'm so against restricting those same freedoms in some kind of ill-conceived attempt at social engineering or punitive measure against people who have nothing to do with the crimes of the past.
Conclusion)
We're a lot closer to that age of enlightening than you think. Younger generations, including mine, are not trapped by the same ways of thinking that older generations are. At no time in history is the common man more empowered to choose his way of life or remake his life in the way he sees fit, rather than being forced into social roles demanded by the tribalism of the past. While it is true that collectivization is still strong, we are free to choose how and why we associate with other people, instead of simply being bound to simple associations based on race. For example, last night I hung out with about 30 other people of varying races, genders, and ages due to a shared interest and we all had a great time. I work on a daily basis with people of other races, and we all get along fine and work together well. My landlord is a first-generation immigrant from Iran, and he's just about the kindest, hardest working man you could be blessed with meeting. In all of these cases, people come from different cultures and walks of life, yet we are somehow able to live, work, and laugh together without the PC police constantly breathing down our necks, telling us how evil the white man is and charging us with racism is we don't follow the rules they made up. While race may not be completely irrelevant for my generation, it takes a backseat to pretty much anything else. It won't keep me from working with a competent coworker, and it won't keep me from making a friend.
By: chronomitch
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
Alright, we seem to agree on virtually nothing. It's a shame that you don't seem to grasp what I'm saying, but, you know, whatever. You have a right to be wrong :)
I'm just going to point out that your stance on censorship (and racism too actually) is horribly lacking in nuance. When I, and the guy in the video, propose a degree of self-censorship, then it is just that, *self* censorship. It has nothing to do with the law. It is not dangerous or harmful.
I'm just going to point out that your stance on censorship (and racism too actually) is horribly lacking in nuance. When I, and the guy in the video, propose a degree of self-censorship, then it is just that, *self* censorship. It has nothing to do with the law. It is not dangerous or harmful.
By: wadadde
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
That "self censorship" you propose is just another form of bullying that we've seen for decades now from the PC police: "If you don't follow the arbitrary rules we made up, then we're going to brand you a racist/sexist/etc." It's not a call for open dialogue (which could actually decrease racism and improve race relations), but an end to the conversation. Instead of being able to openly talk about race, and helping people understand the underlying problems, the rules of PC make everyone so afraid that they avoid the subject altogether. That's why your proposed censorship is harmful and won't work in the long run. It will only drive real racists underground where they can spread their filth away from the public eye, rather than keeping them out in the open where their ideas and demagoguery can be openly challenged.
I don't disagree with the goals that your proposed censorship and other forms of PC seek to achieve. I merely think that they are ineffective at best and will give opposite results at worst.
I don't disagree with the goals that your proposed censorship and other forms of PC seek to achieve. I merely think that they are ineffective at best and will give opposite results at worst.
By: chronomitch
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
Dude, listen to yourself! I say "don't say nigger" and you seem to hear "don't talk about race".
Fuck that. Don't be an idiot now. You're allowed to be wrong, but not there are limits to stretching people's narrative in order to make a point.
Fuck that. Don't be an idiot now. You're allowed to be wrong, but not there are limits to stretching people's narrative in order to make a point.
By: wadadde
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
One more thing. This attitude of "We've done it. Pretty much everything's resolved now" also set in after the civil war. Even many of the radical republicans quickly got tired of swimming upstream and just gave up and moved on. I'm not arguing, by saying this, that everything will go to shit if we believe what you believe. I'm pointing it out because these guys weren't idiots even though they could not have been more wrong and they could have known it. I'm pointing out that self delusion fueled by what is convenient to believe is an extremely powerful force of human nature.
Shit, I can't seem to help myself. Iranians are not black. They're virtually irrelevant to our argument.
I never said that the white man is evil. I thought you would get what I did mean. No matter, it's pretty irrelevant to my argument anyway.
You say that younger generations got virtually none of that icky racism shit. Well, forget it. The racism is strong with the college educated white kids in the most progressive states. And, you know what, they'll say "I'm not a racist, but" and then go on to say something about, for instance, latinos that's just clearly racist if you analyze it. We are tuned to be racist and it's all around us. It's our nature and kids who don't get that are the first to fall to it. And racial minorities actually adopt the stereotypes that exist about them. Social science actually shows that asian americans believe the stereotype that they're better at math and so on, but it also applies to negative stereotypes. I saw a wonderful presentation of a research project on these matters, but I can't seem to find it.
Again, you're wrong on so many fronts, but I know I'm never going to convince you. Only you can do that.
Shit, I can't seem to help myself. Iranians are not black. They're virtually irrelevant to our argument.
I never said that the white man is evil. I thought you would get what I did mean. No matter, it's pretty irrelevant to my argument anyway.
You say that younger generations got virtually none of that icky racism shit. Well, forget it. The racism is strong with the college educated white kids in the most progressive states. And, you know what, they'll say "I'm not a racist, but" and then go on to say something about, for instance, latinos that's just clearly racist if you analyze it. We are tuned to be racist and it's all around us. It's our nature and kids who don't get that are the first to fall to it. And racial minorities actually adopt the stereotypes that exist about them. Social science actually shows that asian americans believe the stereotype that they're better at math and so on, but it also applies to negative stereotypes. I saw a wonderful presentation of a research project on these matters, but I can't seem to find it.
Again, you're wrong on so many fronts, but I know I'm never going to convince you. Only you can do that.
By: wadadde
Re: Tim Wise: Use of the N-Word
Nor should anyone use that despicable word.
Don't just suggest White people. Asians, Native Americans and especially people of African descent.
Don't just suggest White people. Asians, Native Americans and especially people of African descent.
By: spam_vigilante
