Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
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Thom Hartmann debates Wayne Root on payday lenders.
Mar 9, 2010 6:35 AM
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
Hartmann is another Commie.
If you can't read the conditions then don't take out the loan.
He tries to whip out "predatory business practice" as a codeword to imply that profit is evil. Hartmann wants to regulate the market, well then its not free, is it.
He wants to champion the little guy, out of sheer classism, even when what the little guy is doing, is trying to have things he can't pay for. Some call that stealing, but it sounds like Hartmann would call it a "Great Leap Forward".
If you can't read the conditions then don't take out the loan.
He tries to whip out "predatory business practice" as a codeword to imply that profit is evil. Hartmann wants to regulate the market, well then its not free, is it.
He wants to champion the little guy, out of sheer classism, even when what the little guy is doing, is trying to have things he can't pay for. Some call that stealing, but it sounds like Hartmann would call it a "Great Leap Forward".
By: Voidwar
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
I'm going to side with the Libertarian on this one, not because I think people who get payday loans are not smart but because I don't think that the lenders are overcharging. Stay with me.
It's popular to do the math and say "hey, they're charging 400-500% interest. That's outrageous!", but when you look at the individual transactions, this equates to about $30 per $200 pay check. "Wait," you say, "that's a lot!" As a percentage, yes it is, but the business has to cover the fixed cost of originating the loan plus the odds that the business may never get their money back. In some areas, charge-offs can be as high as 20-30 percent. The business has to charge enough to either absorb the losses, or pay Guido to go collect on the account.
Banks won't lend to this crowd for several reasons. 1) FICO doesn't predict shit in subprime space. If banks can't predict losses, they have no way to control them. 2) Banks typically have more reporting requirements on loans, and thus a higher fixed cost per loan. $30 in income just doesn't make sense when it costs $40-50 per loan to originate. They want longer, higher dollar loans which are more stable and pay interest over time. 3) Banks aren't gambling with their own money. They loan out deposits put in by people like you and me. Bank owners generally only have 10-15% of their own money in the lending pool. The rest belongs to grandma, who probably wouldn't appreciate her money being loaned out to a group that might not be able to pay her back, and I as a taxpayer don't want to cover a bank's risky business failures (Oh, wait. We already are. Bastards!).
So, if you impose an APR limit of say, 40%, then the payday lender could only charge $3.00 per $100 lent. It would take a lot of $3s to cover salaries, rent, collections, taxes, etc., so the industry would probably disappear overnight.
This means that someone can't pay $15 to borrow $100 to pay a bill on time and avoid a $35 late fee or buy gas to get to their temporary workplace. That's the world these guys live in.
Let's help them first with basic finance education before we yank their ability to get any kind of credit at all.
It's popular to do the math and say "hey, they're charging 400-500% interest. That's outrageous!", but when you look at the individual transactions, this equates to about $30 per $200 pay check. "Wait," you say, "that's a lot!" As a percentage, yes it is, but the business has to cover the fixed cost of originating the loan plus the odds that the business may never get their money back. In some areas, charge-offs can be as high as 20-30 percent. The business has to charge enough to either absorb the losses, or pay Guido to go collect on the account.
Banks won't lend to this crowd for several reasons. 1) FICO doesn't predict shit in subprime space. If banks can't predict losses, they have no way to control them. 2) Banks typically have more reporting requirements on loans, and thus a higher fixed cost per loan. $30 in income just doesn't make sense when it costs $40-50 per loan to originate. They want longer, higher dollar loans which are more stable and pay interest over time. 3) Banks aren't gambling with their own money. They loan out deposits put in by people like you and me. Bank owners generally only have 10-15% of their own money in the lending pool. The rest belongs to grandma, who probably wouldn't appreciate her money being loaned out to a group that might not be able to pay her back, and I as a taxpayer don't want to cover a bank's risky business failures (Oh, wait. We already are. Bastards!).
So, if you impose an APR limit of say, 40%, then the payday lender could only charge $3.00 per $100 lent. It would take a lot of $3s to cover salaries, rent, collections, taxes, etc., so the industry would probably disappear overnight.
This means that someone can't pay $15 to borrow $100 to pay a bill on time and avoid a $35 late fee or buy gas to get to their temporary workplace. That's the world these guys live in.
Let's help them first with basic finance education before we yank their ability to get any kind of credit at all.
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
You seem to have thought this through. I haven't, but I think your arguments aren't all great. Let's look at the risk being taken by the banks. Lending 300 dollars is fundamentally different from a mortgage situation. First of all the repayment happens not over a long period of time, but in just a few days. The sums involved are not of the same order of magnitude and as long as the interest isn't too high they stay that way even when the repayment doesn't happen at the proper date. Maybe I haven't understood anything about the mortgage crisis but I'm fairly convinced that it was the trade in sub-prime mortgages that created the bubble that eventually popped when the true value of the debt was revealed. When bubbles pop it rocks the market. When the market is rocked the companies that rely on a completely calm trading environment collapse. When too many fall, the whole thing breaks down. Now, I know I'm all over the place here, but we've finally come full circle to the risk for the banks, aswell as for your "grandma". It's just impossible for a bank to be stuck, at any one point in time, with a crippling amount of debt from providing small loans UNLESS the banks stubbornly keep providing these loans for months and months when they're not getting any of it back, but even then they'd pretty much have to get ripped off by every poor person in America. No risk to grandma whatsoever, k? This seems so obvious, I don't see how you could have missed this..
You say that there is an unpredictability when it comes to how much of the loans will be repaid, but that's just plain wrong if we're talking about short term loans. You, as the bank (or whatever FICO is), just run some pilot programs for a few months. Boom, done. This wasn't possible to do with mortgages. Huge difference. Another idea. How about starting small with your customers. The first time they take out a loan they are limitede to 100 dollars at a fairish interest rate. Next time 150 at thye same rate... If you cross acertain line you get black listed in all the banks. Mandatory building of trust in a buisiness relationship doesn't seem that communist to me..
You argue that in order for the practice to be profitable the banks have to charge the kind of amounts they are currently charging. To an extent that's circular reasoning (high rates -> unable to repay -> higher risk + debt collector -> high rates). Other than that I can't really argue against what you said there. I just don't know.
The payday lenders provide a service right? Exactly how essential the service is is hard for me to guage, but does the value of the service correspond to the rates the banks are charging? Is there perhaps a different for-profit or a non-profit solution that would create some financial flexibility for people with few finances to begin with? If what they really need is some financial education then perhaps it's better to not allow loans to these people. That way they'll learn to manage their finances. Or not.
You say that there is an unpredictability when it comes to how much of the loans will be repaid, but that's just plain wrong if we're talking about short term loans. You, as the bank (or whatever FICO is), just run some pilot programs for a few months. Boom, done. This wasn't possible to do with mortgages. Huge difference. Another idea. How about starting small with your customers. The first time they take out a loan they are limitede to 100 dollars at a fairish interest rate. Next time 150 at thye same rate... If you cross acertain line you get black listed in all the banks. Mandatory building of trust in a buisiness relationship doesn't seem that communist to me..
You argue that in order for the practice to be profitable the banks have to charge the kind of amounts they are currently charging. To an extent that's circular reasoning (high rates -> unable to repay -> higher risk + debt collector -> high rates). Other than that I can't really argue against what you said there. I just don't know.
The payday lenders provide a service right? Exactly how essential the service is is hard for me to guage, but does the value of the service correspond to the rates the banks are charging? Is there perhaps a different for-profit or a non-profit solution that would create some financial flexibility for people with few finances to begin with? If what they really need is some financial education then perhaps it's better to not allow loans to these people. That way they'll learn to manage their finances. Or not.
By: wadadde
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
If it's such a risky business, how come it's growing so fast?
The bottom line is these places do more harm than good. They produce nothing and drain money from poor people -- lots of money.
The government has a compelling interest in putting a stop to this. And the best way to do that would be to offer the same service at a fraction of the price. If anyone could walk into any post office and ask for a payday loan at something like $2+6%, these parasites would have no host. They're charging $15 per $100 for two weeks, and then they raise it from there. That's about 3500% EAR, which rises when repayment is late.
Microcredit should help, not harm the borrower.
And we should have real financial education in public schools beginning at a very young age.
The bottom line is these places do more harm than good. They produce nothing and drain money from poor people -- lots of money.
The government has a compelling interest in putting a stop to this. And the best way to do that would be to offer the same service at a fraction of the price. If anyone could walk into any post office and ask for a payday loan at something like $2+6%, these parasites would have no host. They're charging $15 per $100 for two weeks, and then they raise it from there. That's about 3500% EAR, which rises when repayment is late.
Microcredit should help, not harm the borrower.
And we should have real financial education in public schools beginning at a very young age.
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
Cool! I thought you guys were gonna leave me hanging on this one.
I didn't say they weren't bad for the consumer. I just gave the business case for why these lenders charge what they do, and why banks aren't clamoring to scoop up all of these "magical profits." Now we can talk about better solutions (you both are thinking in the right direction) and the things standing in the way of those solutions, which, sadly for hard-working me, I'll have to reply in detail later. Stay tuned....
I didn't say they weren't bad for the consumer. I just gave the business case for why these lenders charge what they do, and why banks aren't clamoring to scoop up all of these "magical profits." Now we can talk about better solutions (you both are thinking in the right direction) and the things standing in the way of those solutions, which, sadly for hard-working me, I'll have to reply in detail later. Stay tuned....
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
A pretty good display of the principles of the left and libertarianism. I found Hartmann a little annoying, despite agreeing with him on principle.
By: y0j1m80
Re: Payday Lenders - Libertarian vs. Liberal
real news bit about predatory lending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9PERC7bPXA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9PERC7bPXA
By: wadadde