Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
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February 7, 2010 on Channel 4 from the documentary series "The Bible: A History".
Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry blow away Ann Widdecombe regarding the Ten Commandments.
Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry blow away Ann Widdecombe regarding the Ten Commandments.
Feb 9, 2010 4:02 AM
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
I think anyone would get upset talking across from that voice for any amount of time. Goodness, it's like a teenage boy going through puberty is trying to escape from her larynx every few seconds.
By: Shiggety
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
It was about halfway through the clip that I realized it wasn't narrated by Eric Idle in a dress.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
On a second listen, it's more like Terry Jones.
"Spam, egg, sausage, and spam, that's not got much spam in it."
That's the skit that gave spam its name, and Spam his name.
"Spam, egg, sausage, and spam, that's not got much spam in it."
That's the skit that gave spam its name, and Spam his name.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
That's funny. I thought he was just using an anagram for "Slim Vagina Pet." Hmph, learn something new every day.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
What a bunch of silly histrionics. The actual words of the Ten Commandments hardly matter when it is the interpretation of them that is really important.
By: Deh_Dude
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Ah yes, the "Don't pay attention to the specifics, unless they make sense and then we want you to" argument.
Good show.
Good show.
By: Count_Bubba
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Hey, I'm an atheist. I'm merely stating the truth of the matter. Just look at the diversity of moral opinions that are supposedly based on the Ten Commandments, and consider how interpretation of them has evolved over the ages.
By: Deh_Dude
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
"it's the interpretation that is really important"
In other words, the Ten Commandments are not the source of our morality, but the other way around.
In other words, the Ten Commandments are not the source of our morality, but the other way around.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Yes, when they were written down, they came from Hebrew moral thought (obviously, since they weren't given from God, but from man).
As the moral outlook of the Abrahamic religions evolved, they made their own moral beliefs fit into the Ten Commandments and the other exhortations of the Bible.
The Catholics have it right when they put Tradition on the same level as Scripture, though it might be more correct to elevate Tradition above Scripture.
As the moral outlook of the Abrahamic religions evolved, they made their own moral beliefs fit into the Ten Commandments and the other exhortations of the Bible.
The Catholics have it right when they put Tradition on the same level as Scripture, though it might be more correct to elevate Tradition above Scripture.
By: Deh_Dude
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Without taking any sides between Christiany and Judaism and atheism, the context of the 10 commandments is most relevant as they represent one of a series of tests from God given to mankind to illustrate mankind's fallibility. Adam's failure is followed by the Jew's failure to stay true to God and the 10 commandments. In Christian doctrine, this leads up to the conclusion that the pathway to salvation is not through righteous perfect living because it is an unobtainable goal but rather through the forgiveness of our failures and sins. So the 10 Commandments are in effect set up to show that we simply cannot follow them. So it's misguided by both sides of this interview to try to advocate or villify the 10 Commandments without that bigger picture understanding of what role they truly play.
By: dbx
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
I think you interpret Mathew 19:16-22 a little differently than I do. Jesus says a lot in that, but seems to say pretty clearly that following the Commandments is feasible. It's not enough, but it's doable.
To be a good follower of Jesus (which at that point was still a Jew--remember, Jesus didn't start a new religion, those are other folks), you also gotta be generous. That's the part that fucks people up. Benny Hinn, I don't know if he likes the next part of this chapter.
KJV of Matthew 19:23-24 (the famous part) reads:
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
You can read it all here.
http://kingjbible.com/matthew/19.htm
Church school didn't make me a Christian, which kind of made my mom bitter. It did, however, help me understand Milton and the English and American Romantics a little better.
To be a good follower of Jesus (which at that point was still a Jew--remember, Jesus didn't start a new religion, those are other folks), you also gotta be generous. That's the part that fucks people up. Benny Hinn, I don't know if he likes the next part of this chapter.
KJV of Matthew 19:23-24 (the famous part) reads:
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
You can read it all here.
http://kingjbible.com/matthew/19.htm
Church school didn't make me a Christian, which kind of made my mom bitter. It did, however, help me understand Milton and the English and American Romantics a little better.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Quoted from the The Eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" from The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster:
2. I'd really rather you didn't use my existence as a means to oppress, subjugate, punish, eviscerate, and/or, you know, be mean to others. I don't require sacrifices and purity is for drinking water, not people.
Your heathen "ten commandments" clearly fail to acknowledge this most holy request, and are therefore heresy. Do not speak such treacherous lies when clearly the almighty has forbidden it.
...
I'll make you a deal, Jack - You stick to the facts, and don't quote your magic super book, and I won't quote mine.
2. I'd really rather you didn't use my existence as a means to oppress, subjugate, punish, eviscerate, and/or, you know, be mean to others. I don't require sacrifices and purity is for drinking water, not people.
Your heathen "ten commandments" clearly fail to acknowledge this most holy request, and are therefore heresy. Do not speak such treacherous lies when clearly the almighty has forbidden it.
...
I'll make you a deal, Jack - You stick to the facts, and don't quote your magic super book, and I won't quote mine.
By: duffguy
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Wait, what? I wasn't speaking to you. I'm sorry if you're offended by a thread that wasn't addressed to you, but that's a bit touchy. I'd offer you some pie if I could.
If someone wants to put beliefs about the Bible out there, I'm going to work within that universe. That's how I was taught to argue. The "facts" are the text of the book.
What you're doing is going Marvel to DC. That doesn't make any sense. There are a lot of texts that don't work with this one, and I'm not mentioning them, either.
You are making assumptions about my beliefs that you have no way of knowing. How do you know I believe any of the text of the Bible to be true? Just because I'm educated in it?
It's a huge leap to assume that knowing the Christian mythology and believing it are the same. But cultural competence is a big part of tolerance. So few people are willing to learn anything about anyone anymore, and have any fucking compassion.
If someone wants to put beliefs about the Bible out there, I'm going to work within that universe. That's how I was taught to argue. The "facts" are the text of the book.
What you're doing is going Marvel to DC. That doesn't make any sense. There are a lot of texts that don't work with this one, and I'm not mentioning them, either.
You are making assumptions about my beliefs that you have no way of knowing. How do you know I believe any of the text of the Bible to be true? Just because I'm educated in it?
It's a huge leap to assume that knowing the Christian mythology and believing it are the same. But cultural competence is a big part of tolerance. So few people are willing to learn anything about anyone anymore, and have any fucking compassion.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Wow.
An Evangelical Pastafarian Fundamentalist.
This town has everything.
An Evangelical Pastafarian Fundamentalist.
This town has everything.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
A whole lotta Team Cake lately? Or do I just need to eat more pie? It seems everyone is taking shit so fucking personal.
A lot of "Dear Internet!" comments.
I mean, Jesus Pie Christ, it's just M&C. There's Pie enough for all. I didn't take the pie out of your mom's mouth, or say your sister couldn't make good pie! I'm sure everyone is here is lovely people, all on Team Pie.
We're the Church of Pie, that's what we are. I hope we can all agree on that.
PIE. MMMM PIE. EAT MORE PIE. PIE NOW.
A lot of "Dear Internet!" comments.
I mean, Jesus Pie Christ, it's just M&C. There's Pie enough for all. I didn't take the pie out of your mom's mouth, or say your sister couldn't make good pie! I'm sure everyone is here is lovely people, all on Team Pie.
We're the Church of Pie, that's what we are. I hope we can all agree on that.
PIE. MMMM PIE. EAT MORE PIE. PIE NOW.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
I tasted the pie in all its wisdom, only to have it taken away, leaving me somehow bitter and perplexed. Then came Loqi's Pastafarian comment, and there was mirth in the world again.
Booge, we can only have faith that the pie still exists. Maybe one day, the pie will return, smiting nonbelievers with its cherry-stained sword, and resurrecting moderators from the days of yore. Until then, though, many here seem to be skeptical that the pie ever existed at all. In time, we elders that remember the glory days of pie will pass on, leaving the rest to argue amongst themselves about whether tis more virtuous to be a pie disciple of blueberry, apple or chocolate.
Alas, many will die in the name pie. Keep the faith.
Booge, we can only have faith that the pie still exists. Maybe one day, the pie will return, smiting nonbelievers with its cherry-stained sword, and resurrecting moderators from the days of yore. Until then, though, many here seem to be skeptical that the pie ever existed at all. In time, we elders that remember the glory days of pie will pass on, leaving the rest to argue amongst themselves about whether tis more virtuous to be a pie disciple of blueberry, apple or chocolate.
Alas, many will die in the name pie. Keep the faith.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
"The "facts" are the text of the book."
My books facts can beat up your books facts.
My books facts can beat up your books facts.
By: duffguy
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
I am so grateful that adultery is not against the law in the United States. The last thing we need is the government getting involved in people's relationships on that fucking level. Can you imagine getting locked up for cheating on your spouse? Or fined? I know in other countries women can be killed for it. Fucking awful.
I'm not saying it isn't a fucked up thing to break the rules of a relationship. Yeah, you're a dick. But if you're not in my close circle of people, is that my business? Not particularly.
I'm not saying it isn't a fucked up thing to break the rules of a relationship. Yeah, you're a dick. But if you're not in my close circle of people, is that my business? Not particularly.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Against the law, no, but it sure can turn the law against you (thinking of divorce court here, in particular). I have to wonder the extent to which men of the period tacked on the adultery/coveting tenets as a form of pissing on their wives ("You stay away from mine, and I'll stay away from yours. And, for good measure, we'll threaten our wives with hellfire if they think of leaving us for someone else. Oh, yeah, you might want to throw in something to take murdering us off the table.")
Oh, yeah. Sectsy, baby....
Oh, yeah. Sectsy, baby....
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Adultery is illegal in a majority of U.S. states.
http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/505.htm
It's rarely prosecuted, but people do occasionally take a conviction:
http://forum.freeadvice.com/divorce-separation-annulment-36/adultery-conviction-virginia-166491.html
But if you're in the military, it's more aggressively prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If you piss off the wrong officer, you can do hard time for adultery.
http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/505.htm
It's rarely prosecuted, but people do occasionally take a conviction:
http://forum.freeadvice.com/divorce-separation-annulment-36/adultery-conviction-virginia-166491.html
But if you're in the military, it's more aggressively prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If you piss off the wrong officer, you can do hard time for adultery.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
Baby, I didn't mean it. Please, just let me come home. He means nothing to me! Neither does she. You're the only one for me, Loqi. I'll be good, I swear. This'll be the best Valentine's Day ever if you just drop the charges.
Re: Hitchens & Fry vs Widdecombe: Commandments
All sarcasm aside...
I find it unbelievable that as Hitchens is leaving she's mumbling "Three thousand years ago, yeah, three thousand years ago, yeah", as though since those awful things were done in the name of a god 3k years ago they aren't an issue anymore. By that logic the entire old testament is garbage, since it came from three thousand years ago.
If you're going to claim that the bible is the literal and divine word of god, read the book of numbers, and start raping and killing your un-godly neighbors and their children immedietly (except the female virgins, you can save them for later use). Otherwise, you're going to have to admit that it's a pick-and-choose system, which is pretty half-ass instruction coming from an ancient "all knowing" being.
I find it unbelievable that as Hitchens is leaving she's mumbling "Three thousand years ago, yeah, three thousand years ago, yeah", as though since those awful things were done in the name of a god 3k years ago they aren't an issue anymore. By that logic the entire old testament is garbage, since it came from three thousand years ago.
If you're going to claim that the bible is the literal and divine word of god, read the book of numbers, and start raping and killing your un-godly neighbors and their children immedietly (except the female virgins, you can save them for later use). Otherwise, you're going to have to admit that it's a pick-and-choose system, which is pretty half-ass instruction coming from an ancient "all knowing" being.
By: duffguy
