Birth of Jesus
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Only two of the four gospels in the Bible provide an account of Jesus' birth and both reveal surprising inconsistencies. Birth of Jesus : http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/mysteries-of-the-bible-main
Dec 14, 2009 12:44 PM
Re: Birth of Jesus
Fascinating.
I wonder how the Roman burning of the "House of God" is rationalized in Jewish faith? Had he moved out without paying the last month's rent? Was he on vacation? Grabbing for a towel in the shower as the walls fell? I can't imagine a more faith-shaking event than the "home" of an all-powerful deity being destroyed.
Just curious. I just have to wonder why there aren't more followers of "Jewpiter" today.
I wonder how the Roman burning of the "House of God" is rationalized in Jewish faith? Had he moved out without paying the last month's rent? Was he on vacation? Grabbing for a towel in the shower as the walls fell? I can't imagine a more faith-shaking event than the "home" of an all-powerful deity being destroyed.
Just curious. I just have to wonder why there aren't more followers of "Jewpiter" today.
Re: Birth of Jesus
When you are indoctrinated into something at either a young age or a vulnerable time in your life, there is almost no such thing as "faith shaking".
That implanted "knowledge" is the basis for your world view set at a time that is the influential to your development.
Asking a theist to question even a small part of dogma is in effect asking them to question everything that they believe about how the world works. It's easier to just ignore it or explain it away. Even if the explanation is weak they have more than enough motivation to accept it.
That implanted "knowledge" is the basis for your world view set at a time that is the influential to your development.
Asking a theist to question even a small part of dogma is in effect asking them to question everything that they believe about how the world works. It's easier to just ignore it or explain it away. Even if the explanation is weak they have more than enough motivation to accept it.
By: shorn
Re: Birth of Jesus
Goddammit. Now you're going to make me get serious, as I must disagree with you.
I was born into a southern baptist family, went to church, Sunday school, Vacation Bible school, various forms of Jesus camps (yes, they're just like the movie), Wednesday choir, starred in the kids' plays. I was as brainwashed a little Jesus-freaky fuck you could imagine.
Then I turned 13, took my first shitty American public school biology class, and was introduced for the first time, in grown-up terms, to evolution. Suddenly, I had a firm, scientific, rational basis for questioning everything I thought I knew about life and the universe.
Months went by, the dominoes fell.
I still remember the Sunday morning that my father knocked on my door to wake me up for church, and I told him I didn't want to go. "Why not?" he asked.
"Because I don't believe in God."
Believe me, there's not much more in life that can fuck a kid up more than telling his family that they can take the bullshit they've been feeding him all his live and go fuck themselves. With one decision, I instantly alienated myself from all of my family and friends, who, of course, could not understand and still don't, two decades later.
Solitude and I are very good friends.
Still, I don't regret the decision at all. The real universe, as we are discovering it, is infinitely more interesting to me than the fairy tales. My time is now free to learn about the world around me, and I have to do so quickly, as I don't have an eternity to study it from "on high," whatever the hell that means.
*sigh* To post this comment or not to post it? Too fucking serious...
So see? There are people in the world who can open their eyes and realize that when Western civilization melts the polar icecaps, Santa Claus is not going to drown and be torn limb from limb after his bloated, rotting corpse gets gang-raped by a pod of horny male orcas during mating season, that long-desired baseball glove floating nearby, on gently, rolling waves.
I was born into a southern baptist family, went to church, Sunday school, Vacation Bible school, various forms of Jesus camps (yes, they're just like the movie), Wednesday choir, starred in the kids' plays. I was as brainwashed a little Jesus-freaky fuck you could imagine.
Then I turned 13, took my first shitty American public school biology class, and was introduced for the first time, in grown-up terms, to evolution. Suddenly, I had a firm, scientific, rational basis for questioning everything I thought I knew about life and the universe.
Months went by, the dominoes fell.
I still remember the Sunday morning that my father knocked on my door to wake me up for church, and I told him I didn't want to go. "Why not?" he asked.
"Because I don't believe in God."
Believe me, there's not much more in life that can fuck a kid up more than telling his family that they can take the bullshit they've been feeding him all his live and go fuck themselves. With one decision, I instantly alienated myself from all of my family and friends, who, of course, could not understand and still don't, two decades later.
Solitude and I are very good friends.
Still, I don't regret the decision at all. The real universe, as we are discovering it, is infinitely more interesting to me than the fairy tales. My time is now free to learn about the world around me, and I have to do so quickly, as I don't have an eternity to study it from "on high," whatever the hell that means.
*sigh* To post this comment or not to post it? Too fucking serious...
So see? There are people in the world who can open their eyes and realize that when Western civilization melts the polar icecaps, Santa Claus is not going to drown and be torn limb from limb after his bloated, rotting corpse gets gang-raped by a pod of horny male orcas during mating season, that long-desired baseball glove floating nearby, on gently, rolling waves.
Re: Birth of Jesus
And what about me, then? If all the ice melts, I'll be panting all day long.
Re: Birth of Jesus
You and your Inuit love slaves can move into a pimped out, solar powered, Arctic barge containing the world's largest lemming brain cooler in the world.
Catching lemmings to survive on will be easy. We'll just put a bunch of neon "Nude Lemming Lap Dances Here" signs on the side of the boat, and they'll just swim up to you.
Like taking goat candy from a baby Jesus (no, that's not chocolate).
Catching lemmings to survive on will be easy. We'll just put a bunch of neon "Nude Lemming Lap Dances Here" signs on the side of the boat, and they'll just swim up to you.
Like taking goat candy from a baby Jesus (no, that's not chocolate).
Re: Birth of Jesus
Well first of all I congratulate you on your coming to rationale.
Second of all I am notorious for responding seriously to things meant in jest. So no worries there.
And third I was only speaking(typing) about theists in general. And in specific about those that will never and possibly can never make the same leap that you(and others) have.
I absolutely agree that there are those that can make that transition. But for others there is still no amount of proof that will change their minds. They are actively guarding themselves and preparing(even as we speak) defenses against any rational point against their beliefs. That is the very definition of dogma.
As for ice and wolves. I hear some wolves dig the forest. Though you may have to give up the "White" appellative.
Second of all I am notorious for responding seriously to things meant in jest. So no worries there.
And third I was only speaking(typing) about theists in general. And in specific about those that will never and possibly can never make the same leap that you(and others) have.
I absolutely agree that there are those that can make that transition. But for others there is still no amount of proof that will change their minds. They are actively guarding themselves and preparing(even as we speak) defenses against any rational point against their beliefs. That is the very definition of dogma.
As for ice and wolves. I hear some wolves dig the forest. Though you may have to give up the "White" appellative.
By: shorn
Re: Birth of Jesus
Thank you, Mr. Serious. We are obvious allies in our common lack of faith.
*Sigh.* Here we go again.
However, I had a couple of issues with your initial comment. The first was your blanket assertion that youth indoctrination was the main reason that dogma doggedly persists in the face of conflicting information. When speaking generally, it's generally a good idea to be sure that your generality is indeed generally true. The point of my story was to demonstrate that group dynamics (GroupThink, In-group/Out-group, etc.) are just as important, if not more important, than early brainwashing. In fact, I might even argue that the brainwashing is a subcomponent of the bigger "herd/mob mentality" problem. But what do I know? I've only been there.
As a side note, it's also good to use words like "usually" and "in general," if that's what you mean. Speaking in absolutes gives you no more credibility than the Pokemon pastor. It sounded as if you were speaking to your Atheist congregation, expecting the "enlightened" flock to sit and nod their heads in blind agreement. I know that wasn't your intent, but that's how it comes across.
If you want to change minds, helping people see the questions is as important as providing an answer.
This brings me to my other issue. I was trying to use an entertaining method to pose a serious question. Are there those that might find it condescending or insulting? Sure! I never said I wasn't trying to be provocative. Plus, I've been coming to M&C long enough to know that many or most of the visitors here share our belief that there is no deity in which to believe, so that's the audience to which I was speaking.
Your comment only begged the original question. It's obvious that Jews didn't throw up their hands and take up Roman polytheism. You answered my question of "how did the Jews ignore and rationalize this event" with "because theists ignore and rationalize."
So, my original question still stands.
*Sigh.* Here we go again.
However, I had a couple of issues with your initial comment. The first was your blanket assertion that youth indoctrination was the main reason that dogma doggedly persists in the face of conflicting information. When speaking generally, it's generally a good idea to be sure that your generality is indeed generally true. The point of my story was to demonstrate that group dynamics (GroupThink, In-group/Out-group, etc.) are just as important, if not more important, than early brainwashing. In fact, I might even argue that the brainwashing is a subcomponent of the bigger "herd/mob mentality" problem. But what do I know? I've only been there.
As a side note, it's also good to use words like "usually" and "in general," if that's what you mean. Speaking in absolutes gives you no more credibility than the Pokemon pastor. It sounded as if you were speaking to your Atheist congregation, expecting the "enlightened" flock to sit and nod their heads in blind agreement. I know that wasn't your intent, but that's how it comes across.
If you want to change minds, helping people see the questions is as important as providing an answer.
This brings me to my other issue. I was trying to use an entertaining method to pose a serious question. Are there those that might find it condescending or insulting? Sure! I never said I wasn't trying to be provocative. Plus, I've been coming to M&C long enough to know that many or most of the visitors here share our belief that there is no deity in which to believe, so that's the audience to which I was speaking.
Your comment only begged the original question. It's obvious that Jews didn't throw up their hands and take up Roman polytheism. You answered my question of "how did the Jews ignore and rationalize this event" with "because theists ignore and rationalize."
So, my original question still stands.
Re: Birth of Jesus
I just finished a cool documentary, Unmistaken Child, about a Tibetan Bhuddist monk who is assigned to go and find the reincarnation of a recently deceased Lama. Astrology and other signs were used locate the kid. Watching this Birth of Jesus doc made me think the "wise men from the east" "following a star" could have been from this tradition, which has been going on for hundreds of years. Even if the biblical story is not historical narrative, which seems likely, I find this a fascinating bit: might Lamas have come to the Middle East occasionally to seek reincarnated Masters, and this practice (maybe even a specific event) have found its way into the biblical story?
By: bushbaby
Re: Birth of Jesus
"This video is not available in your country due to copyright restrictions."
Really not cool :(
Really not cool :(
By: gerrywastaken
Re: Birth of Jesus
Oh my goodness my head is spinning at this. I am canceling my subscription to National Geographic Kids first thing in the morning!
There are so many inaccuracies here that I don't know where to start.
It talks about 3 wise men. Nowhere in the bible will you find a reference to THREE wise men. Just WISE MEN from the east bringing gifts of Frankincense, Gold and Mir. In fact, these would have been disciples of Daniel that came from Babylon and who were trained up in what to look for hundreds of years prior.
It makes false arguments to conclude that there are inconsistencies. For example, it says that Matthew talks about the wise men and the star that led them, but not the census and Luke talks about the census, but not the star. These are not inconsistencies. They are just different vantage points! Neither man was present, so they had only the picture that was told them by their contemporaries, probably Mary and Joseph, Jesus's siblings (who also weren't present since he was the first born) but who undoubtedly heard about it often from their mother.
Also, if you read the bible, it does not say that the wise men were present for the birth of Jesus (actually the name is Joshua, but I won't go there now). They would probably have arrived 1 or more years after Jesus was born.
The narrator seems to think that because the popular nativity scene doesn't match what's in the bible, then it must be false. Well read the 4 gospels and develop your own internal movie about how it went down, because the nativity scene as you remember it is fiction. It 'feels' very Catholic and unrealistic to me. Again, go back and read the scriptures. Focus on the 4 gospels.
A fellow gets the fact right when he states that the birth of Jesus isn't important. It's not. It's the DEATH of Jesus. That's when the ultimate sacrifice occurred. Not the birth.
The birth is only important in that it was outlined in great detail 700 years earlier in the prophesy of Isaiah. So it is documented to prove that the prophesy was fulfilled.
Gee, I'm only in 8 minutes and there's more and more problems with this 'documentary'.
I guess the point is this - don't trust a TV show that earns it's money from advertising to present accurate facts. The writers of this documentary obviously never consultant theologians.
It saddens me that many of you will view this and perceive it as, excuse the pun, gospel. If you watch this and conclude that the story of the birth of Christ is fiction, then please do yourself a favor and seek out a KNOWLEDGEABLE Christian to give the accurate side.
There are so many inaccuracies here that I don't know where to start.
It talks about 3 wise men. Nowhere in the bible will you find a reference to THREE wise men. Just WISE MEN from the east bringing gifts of Frankincense, Gold and Mir. In fact, these would have been disciples of Daniel that came from Babylon and who were trained up in what to look for hundreds of years prior.
It makes false arguments to conclude that there are inconsistencies. For example, it says that Matthew talks about the wise men and the star that led them, but not the census and Luke talks about the census, but not the star. These are not inconsistencies. They are just different vantage points! Neither man was present, so they had only the picture that was told them by their contemporaries, probably Mary and Joseph, Jesus's siblings (who also weren't present since he was the first born) but who undoubtedly heard about it often from their mother.
Also, if you read the bible, it does not say that the wise men were present for the birth of Jesus (actually the name is Joshua, but I won't go there now). They would probably have arrived 1 or more years after Jesus was born.
The narrator seems to think that because the popular nativity scene doesn't match what's in the bible, then it must be false. Well read the 4 gospels and develop your own internal movie about how it went down, because the nativity scene as you remember it is fiction. It 'feels' very Catholic and unrealistic to me. Again, go back and read the scriptures. Focus on the 4 gospels.
A fellow gets the fact right when he states that the birth of Jesus isn't important. It's not. It's the DEATH of Jesus. That's when the ultimate sacrifice occurred. Not the birth.
The birth is only important in that it was outlined in great detail 700 years earlier in the prophesy of Isaiah. So it is documented to prove that the prophesy was fulfilled.
Gee, I'm only in 8 minutes and there's more and more problems with this 'documentary'.
I guess the point is this - don't trust a TV show that earns it's money from advertising to present accurate facts. The writers of this documentary obviously never consultant theologians.
It saddens me that many of you will view this and perceive it as, excuse the pun, gospel. If you watch this and conclude that the story of the birth of Christ is fiction, then please do yourself a favor and seek out a KNOWLEDGEABLE Christian to give the accurate side.
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: Birth of Jesus
This is quite the diatribe for 8 minutes of watching.
I could ask your own mother to describe your birth and it would probably be littered with elements of fiction. Human memory is flawed.
The birth stories were written decades after the fact by people that weren't even there. Put this in perspective - they had had years to tell and retell this story in a way that most effectively resonated with their audiences.
Do you think it was told the same way every time? Probably not. Matthew and Luke created their final cut of the birth story in the same way that NatGeo put together this story - by fitting it with the chronological facts they, and those they talked to over the years, ascertained to be true.
It frankly saddens me that people read the gospels and perceive them as, well, gospel. If you believe everything about something you read solely because someone told you to, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale - cheap - believe me.
To your advertising "point." The money that NatGeo makes is but a paltry sum compared to the billions made by the church selling you on their religious doctrine.
Listen, as I have, to the sales pitch given each Sunday before and after collection plates are passed around. The same time-tested methods of influence used in advertising (repitition, guilt, reciprocity, etc.) are used in the church, and if you're like me, you'll eventually get fed up with it and see organized religion for what it actually is - a long-surviving for-profit corporation. Worse, the money you invest doesn't buy you any interest in the company or say in how it's spent.
And, please, enlighten me on what you think a "knowledgable Christian" actually knows. I don't think I've ever met one.
I could ask your own mother to describe your birth and it would probably be littered with elements of fiction. Human memory is flawed.
The birth stories were written decades after the fact by people that weren't even there. Put this in perspective - they had had years to tell and retell this story in a way that most effectively resonated with their audiences.
Do you think it was told the same way every time? Probably not. Matthew and Luke created their final cut of the birth story in the same way that NatGeo put together this story - by fitting it with the chronological facts they, and those they talked to over the years, ascertained to be true.
It frankly saddens me that people read the gospels and perceive them as, well, gospel. If you believe everything about something you read solely because someone told you to, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale - cheap - believe me.
To your advertising "point." The money that NatGeo makes is but a paltry sum compared to the billions made by the church selling you on their religious doctrine.
Listen, as I have, to the sales pitch given each Sunday before and after collection plates are passed around. The same time-tested methods of influence used in advertising (repitition, guilt, reciprocity, etc.) are used in the church, and if you're like me, you'll eventually get fed up with it and see organized religion for what it actually is - a long-surviving for-profit corporation. Worse, the money you invest doesn't buy you any interest in the company or say in how it's spent.
And, please, enlighten me on what you think a "knowledgable Christian" actually knows. I don't think I've ever met one.
Re: Birth of Jesus
"And, please, enlighten me on what you think a "knowledgable Christian" actually knows. I don't think I've ever met one."
You must be a real hoot at parties!
You must be a real hoot at parties!
By: PalmBayChuck
Re: Birth of Jesus
Haha, when all else fails you can still shoot the pianist, right?
Personality attacks rock! Jesus loves ya.
Personality attacks rock! Jesus loves ya.
By: wadadde
Re: Birth of Jesus
Yes, you should have seen me at the "Let's Teach Our Kids Intelligent Design as Science" party last week. You've never seen so much blood on the walls.
You can see me again next week when I go to Uganda for the "Kill Fags Because They're All Abominations" party. There should be plenty of broken noses and hurt feelings to go around.
I'm only sorry I wasn't around for the "Slavery is Justified in the Old Testament" party that gave birth to the Southern Baptist Convention. That would have been a real hoot and a holler! I bet those good ol' boys thought "they was real knowledgeable crischuns."
You can see me again next week when I go to Uganda for the "Kill Fags Because They're All Abominations" party. There should be plenty of broken noses and hurt feelings to go around.
I'm only sorry I wasn't around for the "Slavery is Justified in the Old Testament" party that gave birth to the Southern Baptist Convention. That would have been a real hoot and a holler! I bet those good ol' boys thought "they was real knowledgeable crischuns."
Re: Birth of Jesus
Actually, I picked up on some of these points as well. The Bible does not call them wise men, but instead lists them as astrologers. The Bible also does not give an actual number as to how many there were. Plus, when they arrived Jesus was living in a house, so it wasn't when he was born.
Not all Christians believe the star was from God. Think about it, astrology is forbidden in the Bible, so God wouldn't go along with it. Also, they were sent by Herod so Jesus could be found and killed. For a star to guide astrologers to Jesus house would have had to been of Satanic origin. Most Christians get upset by that notion.
The documentary tries to use astronomy to explain the star, but that discredits its supernatural-ness. The star in the Bible moved and stopped above his house. No natural phenomenon could explain that.
There are only two stories in the Bible that reference birthdays. One was Pharaoh's and one was Herod's. On both occasions people were beheaded. For the Bible to list only two birthday celebrations, both with unfavorable acts, shows the Bible does not approve of them. Neither early Jews nor Christians celebrated holidays as it was considered a pagan practice. This is why Jesus' birth is not considered that important.
Most people care more about the commercialism of Christmas anyway.
Not all Christians believe the star was from God. Think about it, astrology is forbidden in the Bible, so God wouldn't go along with it. Also, they were sent by Herod so Jesus could be found and killed. For a star to guide astrologers to Jesus house would have had to been of Satanic origin. Most Christians get upset by that notion.
The documentary tries to use astronomy to explain the star, but that discredits its supernatural-ness. The star in the Bible moved and stopped above his house. No natural phenomenon could explain that.
There are only two stories in the Bible that reference birthdays. One was Pharaoh's and one was Herod's. On both occasions people were beheaded. For the Bible to list only two birthday celebrations, both with unfavorable acts, shows the Bible does not approve of them. Neither early Jews nor Christians celebrated holidays as it was considered a pagan practice. This is why Jesus' birth is not considered that important.
Most people care more about the commercialism of Christmas anyway.
By: digitalprime
Re: Birth of Jesus
I think it's funny when people talk about the "commercialism" of Christmas, and forgetting it's true spirit.
First of all, as you implied Christmas as a holiday was co-opted by early Christians from various pagan holidays. The purpose of Christmas is to let the savages have their parties but to give it a Christian spin.
Second of all it's not about commercialism. People enjoy giving gifts. People enjoy getting gifts. People enjoy hanging out with loved ones and celebrating and having fun. Before complex capitalistic society perhaps they made each other gifts. But we now life in a society that when you want a thing, you go buy it. It's no more commercial then every day life is.
First of all, as you implied Christmas as a holiday was co-opted by early Christians from various pagan holidays. The purpose of Christmas is to let the savages have their parties but to give it a Christian spin.
Second of all it's not about commercialism. People enjoy giving gifts. People enjoy getting gifts. People enjoy hanging out with loved ones and celebrating and having fun. Before complex capitalistic society perhaps they made each other gifts. But we now life in a society that when you want a thing, you go buy it. It's no more commercial then every day life is.
By: shorn
Re: Birth of Jesus
Is it really a transition from making gifts to buying gifts? If so, you might have a point. But even then you seems to be shooting your own arguement in the face a little. I agree we live in a consumption-based society, but christmas amplifies that characteristic. It's an orgy of consumption, mainly because a huge cyclical advertising offensive tells us that that is how it should be. That's the point.
Obviously getting gifts is at least as much fun as eating lots of great food and getting drunk.
Obviously getting gifts is at least as much fun as eating lots of great food and getting drunk.
By: wadadde
Re: Birth of Jesus
Christmas is "supposed" to be about Christ. So I like to count how many times Jesus comes up at Christmas parties whether they be at work or family get togethers. I don't think I've ever counted to 1 yet.
There is a video someone posted last year on this site where an atheist asks Christians why they celebrate Christmas. The video explains its pagan origins and all the scriptures that condemn practicing pagan customs. I agreed 100% with it.
There is a video someone posted last year on this site where an atheist asks Christians why they celebrate Christmas. The video explains its pagan origins and all the scriptures that condemn practicing pagan customs. I agreed 100% with it.
By: digitalprime
Re: Birth of Jesus
I find it hard for anyone to say "the bible says" as if there was one bible. There is no "the" bible. The bible comes in more varieties than Heinz.
Which in it's own right is interesting since it's supposedly the word of God.
Which in it's own right is interesting since it's supposedly the word of God.
By: Faffy
