10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
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A ten year old boy won't say pledge and wants rights for gays and lesbians.
Nov 17, 2009 12:10 AM
Re: 10 Year Old Wont Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
5*, really, I expected an inarticulate drone simply reciting something their parents told them to say. This kid knows what he's talking about, he's able to vocalize his ideas clearly and coherently, and trying to make a difference. This makes me proud.
Re: 10 Year Old Wont Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Well, all this attention will probably land him the role of Harry Potter in the new film. The old one was getting too old, anyway. Also, I hear there's evil gay wizards or something in those films, so let's all make peace and not fight again. This guy will be the little crusader doing that and they lived happily ever after. No more Harry Potter films, which might be a good thing as well. Justice and liberty for all!
Re: 10 Year Old Wont Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Frederick Douglass: Independence Day Speech at Rochester, 1841
Fellow citizens, pardon me, and allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here today? What have I or those I represent to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? And am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits, and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?
Continue... http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/douglass.htm
Fellow citizens, pardon me, and allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here today? What have I or those I represent to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? And am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits, and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?
Continue... http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/douglass.htm
Re: 10 Year Old Wont Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
"At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. Oh! had I the ability, and could I reach the nation's ear, I would today pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be denounced."
An excellent speech, one that I've never read before. Applicable to today in measures.
However, I'm not sure if even the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake of a nation roused is possible any more.
An excellent speech, one that I've never read before. Applicable to today in measures.
However, I'm not sure if even the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake of a nation roused is possible any more.
By: Wolvan
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
And he's sure got pretty lips.
/ I keed!
//Actually, when I clicked on the video I already thought that this kid must've been coached to do this by a zealous parent, but after watching I don't think so. He's quite a weird little individual, and you got to respect his bravery -- I wasn't brave enough to do this in H.S. at age 16, even though I wanted to...
/ I keed!
//Actually, when I clicked on the video I already thought that this kid must've been coached to do this by a zealous parent, but after watching I don't think so. He's quite a weird little individual, and you got to respect his bravery -- I wasn't brave enough to do this in H.S. at age 16, even though I wanted to...
By: StrangeAttractor
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Interesting! Just this Tuesday, I sat in on a 3rd grade class and happened to be there for the pledge of allegiance. It was a bit weird, because I also have issues with it. My response is to put my hand on my heart, but only say the parts I agree with: "I pledge allegiance to... the United States of America, and to the Republic... one Nation... indivisible... with liberty and justice for all." Personally, I would prefer to pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America (I refuse to swear obedience to a piece of cloth), but this works. I had never considered dropping the "liberty and justice for all" part before, probably because this is an ideal to which I agree, even though its practice is still incomplete.
By: cthomas
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
This kid must get beat up on the daily, probably won't make it to law school.
By: cneetz
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Oh, I have to take issue! This poor boy has jumped on the "justice and liberty for all but ONLY IF YOU AGREE WITH ME" bandwagon. At the risk of being called a homophobe (I am most definitely not,) I must point out that everybody, gay or straight, enjoys the same "right" to marry under the current legal definition. No one has the right to marry the same sex unless and until they convince the majority to change the legal definition of marriage. They are not seeking equality. They are seeking an exception - or the creation of a "new right," if you will. (Just like pedophiles, zoophiles, and polygamists would have to if they wanted to marry. Or are their "rights" being trampled as well?) I'm not saying gay marriage can't or shouldn't be legal. That is our democratic "right" to decide. To date, the majority has decided against it. That might be unpopular with some, but it is not unjust.
By: awfabee
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
I would point out that it is the gender-police crowd that's changing the laws. When a court says gays can get married (to other gays), they're saying that the laws as written say nothing against such a thing. When voters pass an initiative outlawing gay marriage, that is, in fact, a change to the definition of marriage.
There was a time when the majority opposed interracial marriage. Why should we give the "special right" to someone to marry someone of a different race? They should be happy with the same-race marriage that everyone else seems to favor. Why should we let Jews own businesses? They can become Christians or employees instead of insisting on the "special right" to be both Jewish AND a business owner. I'm sure that were put to a vote in the 1920s, or if it applied to Muslims in the 2000s, it might get a majority of yes votes in Alabama.
I'm sure Ted Haggard's wife would rather have married a straight guy. Plus, the kid's not trampling anyone's liberty and justice. He's just refusing to recite his morning flag prayer.
There was a time when the majority opposed interracial marriage. Why should we give the "special right" to someone to marry someone of a different race? They should be happy with the same-race marriage that everyone else seems to favor. Why should we let Jews own businesses? They can become Christians or employees instead of insisting on the "special right" to be both Jewish AND a business owner. I'm sure that were put to a vote in the 1920s, or if it applied to Muslims in the 2000s, it might get a majority of yes votes in Alabama.
I'm sure Ted Haggard's wife would rather have married a straight guy. Plus, the kid's not trampling anyone's liberty and justice. He's just refusing to recite his morning flag prayer.
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Your first point is moot. No judge or JP has ever granted the legal right of same sex marriage without being specifically legislated to do so. It is de facto illegal. That some past legislator didn't have the foresight or see the need to actually write it down is a loophole argument at best.
But to the issue at hand, how does a right become a right? Because a minority wishes it? I certainly hope not. Or else why shouldn't pedophiles be allowed to marry children? (Why shouldn't children be allowed to consent?) And what about polygamy among consenting adults? Where are their "rights?" Etc. Etc. My point here is that "liberty and justice for all" is always a fluid and limited concept that has to be agreed upon by the majority. You can advocate your position, but you can't reject the entire concept if it doesn't agree with you. That's anarchy. (No, a child's symbolic gesture is not anarchy. I'm speaking generally.)
The "right" of same-sex marriage doesn't exist yet for anyone, gay or straight. The "right" of heterosexual marriage exists for everyone. Unlike blacks, women, Jews, and most other "rights" issues of the past, gays and lesbians actually don't want equality. They want an exception for a special circumstance. I'm not saying they shouldn't get it. But let's call it what it is.
And I never said the kid was trampling anything. I just think he's adopted rhetoric that may well be beyond his understanding. I've never been comfortable with children being advocates. Who knows everything at age 10?
And I can't speak for Alabama.
But to the issue at hand, how does a right become a right? Because a minority wishes it? I certainly hope not. Or else why shouldn't pedophiles be allowed to marry children? (Why shouldn't children be allowed to consent?) And what about polygamy among consenting adults? Where are their "rights?" Etc. Etc. My point here is that "liberty and justice for all" is always a fluid and limited concept that has to be agreed upon by the majority. You can advocate your position, but you can't reject the entire concept if it doesn't agree with you. That's anarchy. (No, a child's symbolic gesture is not anarchy. I'm speaking generally.)
The "right" of same-sex marriage doesn't exist yet for anyone, gay or straight. The "right" of heterosexual marriage exists for everyone. Unlike blacks, women, Jews, and most other "rights" issues of the past, gays and lesbians actually don't want equality. They want an exception for a special circumstance. I'm not saying they shouldn't get it. But let's call it what it is.
And I never said the kid was trampling anything. I just think he's adopted rhetoric that may well be beyond his understanding. I've never been comfortable with children being advocates. Who knows everything at age 10?
And I can't speak for Alabama.
By: awfabee
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
In California, Proposition 22 was overwhelmingly approved by voters in 2000. That law said "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." After years of litigation against stalling tactics by anti-gay marriage activists, in May 2008 the Supreme Court of California finally struck down all California statutes which limit marriage contracts to opposite-sex couples, ruling them in violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the state constitution. This opened the door to gay marriage in California for half a year until November 2008, when Proposition 8 passed by a narrow margin. This created a state constitutional amendment whose sole purpose is to deny marriage contracts to same-sex couples in California.
If you consider the presence of an Equal Protection Clause to be a "loophole", and the absence of a constitutional amendment singling out a particular class of people for discrimination to be a "special right," well I guess we'll just have to disagree about that. You say a gay man can get married to a woman, and that counts as equal protection. Bzzzt. Thank you for playing. What if we had a law that said a Jewish man can be Jewish, so long as he worships the Christian way like everyone else? Asking to be allowed to worship the Jewish way is asking for a special right? I think that's laughable, and the court agreed.
Public support for gay marriage has been steadily growing everywhere in America. This social turmoil is a sign we're entering the 50% period. It's only a matter of time before it crosses 50% in California. The demographics are shifting one funeral at a time.
Sure, a gay man can marry a straight girl. But would you want her to be your daughter?
If you consider the presence of an Equal Protection Clause to be a "loophole", and the absence of a constitutional amendment singling out a particular class of people for discrimination to be a "special right," well I guess we'll just have to disagree about that. You say a gay man can get married to a woman, and that counts as equal protection. Bzzzt. Thank you for playing. What if we had a law that said a Jewish man can be Jewish, so long as he worships the Christian way like everyone else? Asking to be allowed to worship the Jewish way is asking for a special right? I think that's laughable, and the court agreed.
Public support for gay marriage has been steadily growing everywhere in America. This social turmoil is a sign we're entering the 50% period. It's only a matter of time before it crosses 50% in California. The demographics are shifting one funeral at a time.
Sure, a gay man can marry a straight girl. But would you want her to be your daughter?
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
"But to the issue at hand, how does a right become a right? Because a minority wishes it? I certainly hope not."
Actually, the Federalist Papers show a strong concern for what is usually called "the Tyranny of the Majority."
One of the reasons why they designed a democratic republic (elected representatives) rather than a true democracy (direct rule of the people) is because they were rightfully concerned with both demagoguery and the rule of the mob.
In building in all the "checks and balances" we often talk about when discussing the structure of the U.S. government, the founders demonstrated a consistent concern for the rights of the minority.
That, and the fact our country came of age with the rise of capitalism and industry, is probably why Americans have such a strong tendency towards individualism.
Our interpretation of "freedom" is often construed as the idea of a person's individual rights being extended as far as possible without trampling the rights of others.
And the decisions regarding Constitutional rights -- or the Amendments made to it -- which are generally the most revered by later generations are those which broaden rather than restrict the rights of individuals to pursue their own happiness.
So stating that the majority of Americans do not approve of the right to a same-sex marriage (and that's by no means a unanimous majority) doesn't strengthen the argument we shouldn't grant the right to same-sex marriage.
I feel pretty confident that when woman were given the vote, the majority of Americans (including women) didn't think it should have happened.
When Jim Crow laws were abolished, I feel pretty certain that most Americans -- at least in the states with those laws -- didn't support an integrated society.
Most Americans, until very recently, were highly opposed to interracial marriages, although that right, too, was granted to the minority.
Actually, the Federalist Papers show a strong concern for what is usually called "the Tyranny of the Majority."
One of the reasons why they designed a democratic republic (elected representatives) rather than a true democracy (direct rule of the people) is because they were rightfully concerned with both demagoguery and the rule of the mob.
In building in all the "checks and balances" we often talk about when discussing the structure of the U.S. government, the founders demonstrated a consistent concern for the rights of the minority.
That, and the fact our country came of age with the rise of capitalism and industry, is probably why Americans have such a strong tendency towards individualism.
Our interpretation of "freedom" is often construed as the idea of a person's individual rights being extended as far as possible without trampling the rights of others.
And the decisions regarding Constitutional rights -- or the Amendments made to it -- which are generally the most revered by later generations are those which broaden rather than restrict the rights of individuals to pursue their own happiness.
So stating that the majority of Americans do not approve of the right to a same-sex marriage (and that's by no means a unanimous majority) doesn't strengthen the argument we shouldn't grant the right to same-sex marriage.
I feel pretty confident that when woman were given the vote, the majority of Americans (including women) didn't think it should have happened.
When Jim Crow laws were abolished, I feel pretty certain that most Americans -- at least in the states with those laws -- didn't support an integrated society.
Most Americans, until very recently, were highly opposed to interracial marriages, although that right, too, was granted to the minority.
By: StrangeAttractor
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Yeah, the other famous constitutional reduction of personal liberties was alcohol prohibition. Well we saw what the 18th Amendment got us: the 21st Amendment repealing the 18th Amendment. That, and robust organized crime networks that always seem to find more excessive profit opportunities with each new puritanical vice law.
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
Excellent discussions here. Keep it up, folks.
Re: 10 yo Won't Say Pledge and Wants Rights for Gays
You attempt to claim the moral high ground by equating homosexuality with pedophilia, but you're using your opinion that homosexuality is as reprehensible as the sexual abuse of a child as the foundation for your argument that keeping gays from marrying each other is not discrimination, when in fact it IS discrimination. You have the right to believe that homosexuality is wrong, but when your opinion deprives another person of justice and liberty, you are oppressing them. Marriage is a legal definition and carries legal ramifications, and because anti-homosexual sentiment originates directly from religious dogma, legal restrictions on homosexual behavior is a violation of church and state and should be illegal.
Personally, I find your ignorant suggestion that gays are no better than pedophiles disgusting and contemptible, but luckily for you someone stood up for your liberty and your justice and you have the right state your opinions
Personally, I find your ignorant suggestion that gays are no better than pedophiles disgusting and contemptible, but luckily for you someone stood up for your liberty and your justice and you have the right state your opinions