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QualiaSoup: Putting Faith in its Place
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Video with a very simple and well illustrated breakdown of the traditional, fallacious, faith-based arguments.
Well done and un-inflammatory.
Faith has no place demanding agreement or punishing disagreement. -- QualiaSoup
Well done and un-inflammatory.
Faith has no place demanding agreement or punishing disagreement. -- QualiaSoup
Sep 28, 2009 12:52 AM
Re: Putting faith in its place
One of the things this video doesn't properly adress is that many people still don't recognize that we live in a rational universe. Therefore logic and 'proof' are seen as but one of many tools in getting at 'the truth'. People are NOT born rational. You have to make them housebroken. And this is where education is somewhat lacking today. Children do get taught a lot of scientific knowledge, but there seems to be a gap when it comes to how we think about reality. Couldn't we sacrifice a few hours of math lessons in favour of logic as a subject. It's very similar in the end, just more applicable outside the job market. Also a basic but thourough tour of the scientific methodology in high school seems essential. I had to wait until I went to university before these things were really explained to me.
Sure, the evidence that science 'works' is all around us, but there's also a genuine sense in society that you can use facts to prove just about any whacky old 'theory' (statistics, psychology, etc.). Without a decent education in the workings of science, you could succumb to scepticism about the effectiveness of applying the scientific principles to reality instead of realising that not all research is really sound science.
The video was also too long.. just like my arguement.
Sure, the evidence that science 'works' is all around us, but there's also a genuine sense in society that you can use facts to prove just about any whacky old 'theory' (statistics, psychology, etc.). Without a decent education in the workings of science, you could succumb to scepticism about the effectiveness of applying the scientific principles to reality instead of realising that not all research is really sound science.
The video was also too long.. just like my arguement.
By: wadadde
Re: Putting faith in its place
Yup, far too long.
I probably agreed with pretty much everything he was saying - but it was so boring, by 6-7 minutes in, I wasn't really listening and couldn't handle any more.
I voted 1/5.
I probably agreed with pretty much everything he was saying - but it was so boring, by 6-7 minutes in, I wasn't really listening and couldn't handle any more.
I voted 1/5.
By: gypo
Re: Putting faith in its place
Yeah, let me summarize, because I agree with you.
Many people don't accept that God has to work within the boundaries of logic. They believe that he transcends any sort of puny human perception; mystery solved.
What annoys me is that athiests (like the one in this video) cannot accept, even with their "superior logic skills", that religion is as much a part of human nature as sex or emotion. Trying to end religious belief is like trying to stop dogs from barking.
Many people don't accept that God has to work within the boundaries of logic. They believe that he transcends any sort of puny human perception; mystery solved.
What annoys me is that athiests (like the one in this video) cannot accept, even with their "superior logic skills", that religion is as much a part of human nature as sex or emotion. Trying to end religious belief is like trying to stop dogs from barking.
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
Aaaah, here we go. Religion is NOT part of human nature, FEAR is a part of human nature, more specifically, fear of the unknown. Religion (roughly defined as a system of beliefs regarding the meaning of life, and often the subject of what happens at the end of life) is a way of explaining and then understanding that which makes us afraid (death, lack of meaning in life) and so eliminating fear.
What is part of human nature is the part of that process that the formation of religion has in common with the development of the scientific method, the part whereby we use 'reason' to 'figure out' the world around us.
Religion is useless, and often dangerous because it is not constrained by any consistent hierarchal system of rules or logic which allow us to render ANY absolute deductions about the world around us. I've never seen a preacher pray a new invention into existence. I have seen the result of careful execution of scientific logic, namely any technological advance ever achieved.
If religion were in fact part of our nature, so would be lightbulbs and microprocessors, but in reality, as were these things, religion is something that was invented.
What is part of human nature is the part of that process that the formation of religion has in common with the development of the scientific method, the part whereby we use 'reason' to 'figure out' the world around us.
Religion is useless, and often dangerous because it is not constrained by any consistent hierarchal system of rules or logic which allow us to render ANY absolute deductions about the world around us. I've never seen a preacher pray a new invention into existence. I have seen the result of careful execution of scientific logic, namely any technological advance ever achieved.
If religion were in fact part of our nature, so would be lightbulbs and microprocessors, but in reality, as were these things, religion is something that was invented.
By: SexyJesus
Re: Putting faith in its place
This is what I'm talking about, thanks for illustrating it for me. I have empirical evidence that religion is part of our nature (the vast majority of the population over 2.5 million years) and you have hypothetical rhetoric (religion is useless because it's not logical).
Bravo. This is why non-theists don't like to be grouped together with atheists. You can't accept that other people need religion.
Bravo. This is why non-theists don't like to be grouped together with atheists. You can't accept that other people need religion.
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
So since we have believed for so long, we should not try to better ourselves or correct our mistakes? Is that what you really believe?
By: chronomitch
Re: Putting faith in its place
I can't help but think that you read my post, twisted it around until it fit neatly in your own warped psyche, and made it say to you what you wanted to hear. Your reply has absolutely no bearing on my statement, whatsoever. At no point did I suggest we, as humans, NEED religion, and in fact inferred EXACTLY the opposite. I said religion is USELESS and DANGEROUS.
Clearly, my use of complex syntax has tangled your cognitive processes, so allow me to further delineate the concept I was attempting to express:
Religion is a hobby, practiced without discipline, or accountability. Kind of like writing a comic book. I lot of people do it a certain way, but there aren't really any rules. Cavemen drew pictures, and you could loosely define those as comics, but they're no more a natural activity than drawing a picture of Spiderman. Spiderman isn't real, the antelopes that the caveman drew aren't real, and Jesus isn't real. All are the product of creative minds, but all are fictitious and not at all necessary to our survival. In defense of comics, Peter Parker never told anybody to kill and eat their children. Probably, neither did an antelope.
Clearly, my use of complex syntax has tangled your cognitive processes, so allow me to further delineate the concept I was attempting to express:
Religion is a hobby, practiced without discipline, or accountability. Kind of like writing a comic book. I lot of people do it a certain way, but there aren't really any rules. Cavemen drew pictures, and you could loosely define those as comics, but they're no more a natural activity than drawing a picture of Spiderman. Spiderman isn't real, the antelopes that the caveman drew aren't real, and Jesus isn't real. All are the product of creative minds, but all are fictitious and not at all necessary to our survival. In defense of comics, Peter Parker never told anybody to kill and eat their children. Probably, neither did an antelope.
By: SexyJesus
Re: Putting faith in its place
So I wrote "You can't accept that other people need religion". Then you said "At no point did I suggest we, as humans, NEED religion and in fact inferred EXACTLY the opposite."
And then you accused me of poor reading comprehension.
I was hoping to have a real debate. Oh well.
And then you accused me of poor reading comprehension.
I was hoping to have a real debate. Oh well.
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
You wanted a real debate? It seems like you just want to make snide, sarcastic comments.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: Putting faith in its place
So if we need religion, it must be true? If we somehow needed religion, it would only prove that our brains were flawed somehow, the same as how we have brain "failures" when we look at optical illusions.
As to humanity's need for religion itself, I must also disagree with you here. Most religious people did not choose to be so. They were indoctrinated at a young age and grew up in a society which supported preposterous beliefs and punished those who thought differently. I know because I was such a person, and it was only by removing myself from such a society/community that I was actually able to realistically question my beliefs without fearing retribution.
As to humanity's need for religion itself, I must also disagree with you here. Most religious people did not choose to be so. They were indoctrinated at a young age and grew up in a society which supported preposterous beliefs and punished those who thought differently. I know because I was such a person, and it was only by removing myself from such a society/community that I was actually able to realistically question my beliefs without fearing retribution.
By: chronomitch
Re: Putting faith in its place
Let me get this straight- you live a better life without religion, therefore so would everyone else.
I am defeated. My hat is off to you.
I am defeated. My hat is off to you.
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
I am not implying that other people would be happier without religion, or even that I am happier without religion. However, religion comes at a cost. Take a look around you at the absurd and, many times, downright evil positions many religious people take. Sure, you can say that not all religious people are like that, but that's not the point.
The point is that religious systems are so loose and contradictory (they have to be to allow their leaders to get away with the things they do) that anyone can claim anything they do, whether good or bad, to be mandated by god(s).
You cannot tell me that a world in which people looked made decisions based on facts and honesty would be worse than one in which people did things because religious text X said so or preacher Y said so.
The point is that religious systems are so loose and contradictory (they have to be to allow their leaders to get away with the things they do) that anyone can claim anything they do, whether good or bad, to be mandated by god(s).
You cannot tell me that a world in which people looked made decisions based on facts and honesty would be worse than one in which people did things because religious text X said so or preacher Y said so.
By: chronomitch
Re: Putting faith in its place
You've defined idealism for me. Thanks.
If you really believe religion is going away just because you're not a fan of it, I can't help but think there's some heavy denial going on.
Are you guys confused? Do you think I'm arguing for religion? I'm saying that I'm tired of atheists who think that religion can be overcome by logic and reason. Boy, wouldn't it be nice? It's fun to pretend!
If you accept that it's a part of the human condition you'll find yourself a lot less surprised by people's actions.
If you really believe religion is going away just because you're not a fan of it, I can't help but think there's some heavy denial going on.
Are you guys confused? Do you think I'm arguing for religion? I'm saying that I'm tired of atheists who think that religion can be overcome by logic and reason. Boy, wouldn't it be nice? It's fun to pretend!
If you accept that it's a part of the human condition you'll find yourself a lot less surprised by people's actions.
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
Thanks for putting things in perspective. I will never again try to improve myself or the world around me. Instead, I will be sarcastic and jaded like you by merely supporting the status quo and ridiculing anyone who tries.
By: chronomitch
Re: Putting faith in its place
"It is not so very important for a person to learn facts. For that he does not really need a college. He can learn them from books. The value of an education . . . is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think something that cannot be learned from textbooks."
-Albert Einstein
-Albert Einstein
By: SexyJesus
Re: Putting faith in its place
Is there irony in the fact that you regurgitated this quote? Which I assume you read somewhere?
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
I posted it because it's relevant, and actually I heard it from your mom, last night.
By: SexyJesus
Re: Putting faith in its place
My mom usually charges extra to blurt out quotes by famous intellectuals during sex. Then she donates the proceeds to the LDS for a tax write-off.
By: Chewbot
Re: Putting faith in its place
I think it did address that point, but just in a roundabout way. Part of the video basically said that if one person believes in god A with no evidence to back up his claim, a belief in god B without evidence would be equally unsupported. In other words, there would be no reason to believe in god A over god B, so claims that religion X is the real religion fall apart. Likewise, forcing anyone to follow religion X would be ludicrous.
By: chronomitch
Re: Putting faith in its place
"One of the things this video doesn't properly adress is that many people still don't recognize that we live in a rational universe."
Indeed. And many actively choose this, rather than it being an accidental state. Martin Luther was sharply deliberate when he said "reason is the enemy of faith."
Indeed. And many actively choose this, rather than it being an accidental state. Martin Luther was sharply deliberate when he said "reason is the enemy of faith."
By: decavolt
Re: QualiaSoup: Putting Faith in its Place
I thought it was very done, and while a bit long, kept me interested throughout.
It's a nice change from the 'yes there is, no there isn't' arguments and points directly to the flawed reasoning theists use to make their argument for the existence of an all-knowing all-powerful being.
It's a nice change from the 'yes there is, no there isn't' arguments and points directly to the flawed reasoning theists use to make their argument for the existence of an all-knowing all-powerful being.
By: Razorback
Re: QualiaSoup: Putting Faith in its Place
Whew, finally! One Brit with a bootleg copy of (insert video editing software here) did what thousands of years of pondering, denying, believing, and struggling couldn't do. Now we can move on. Dawkins and Aurelius can spoon, and we can all get on with our lives. <irony> Thank God! </irony>
By: 23rdEye
Re: QualiaSoup: Putting Faith in its Place
I seem to think there are extremes to both arguments. I'm sure we all can't stand ignorant people who believe anything, but I feel that there is a place for faith.
For example, if I told the maker of this video that jumping off a cliff will kill him. He can put faith in my words, or test the statement and prove me right. Imagine he ate poison because he refused to put faith in the statement that it was deadly. There comes a point where you have to show faith/trust.
No physical evidence of God? Those of us who believe see all of life as physical evidence. I don't deny evolution, but I don't see it as complete random accidents/coincidences. Life is just too complex for me to believe it happened by a series of chances.
Then he made the statement that even if God supposedly did manifest himself (herself), it may just be advanced aliens playing tricks on us. What??? Is he serious? That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard.
If there is no God(s) then the outcome is the same no matter what you believe. However, IF there is a God, and IF there is an afterlife, and IF there are rules to attaining it...then I'd rather just play it safe and have some kind of belief.
There nothing wrong with believing, as long as you don't push your beliefs on others. However, I see nothing wrong with SHARING beliefs with others as long as you don't PUSH your beliefs.
For example, if I told the maker of this video that jumping off a cliff will kill him. He can put faith in my words, or test the statement and prove me right. Imagine he ate poison because he refused to put faith in the statement that it was deadly. There comes a point where you have to show faith/trust.
No physical evidence of God? Those of us who believe see all of life as physical evidence. I don't deny evolution, but I don't see it as complete random accidents/coincidences. Life is just too complex for me to believe it happened by a series of chances.
Then he made the statement that even if God supposedly did manifest himself (herself), it may just be advanced aliens playing tricks on us. What??? Is he serious? That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard.
If there is no God(s) then the outcome is the same no matter what you believe. However, IF there is a God, and IF there is an afterlife, and IF there are rules to attaining it...then I'd rather just play it safe and have some kind of belief.
There nothing wrong with believing, as long as you don't push your beliefs on others. However, I see nothing wrong with SHARING beliefs with others as long as you don't PUSH your beliefs.
By: digitalprime
