Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage

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Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Former Vice President Cheney responded to a question about the inevitability of legal same-sex marriage in the U.S., saying that he believed "freedom means freedom for all" but that decisions about marriage laws are best made at a state level.
Jun 3, 2009 2:36 PM
Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Wait, "They do at present?" No, they don't. They get a shot right now at people having other people tell them that their relationships make them uncomfortable, and having other people's religions dictate their relationships. Or they get weird semantic bullshit on them. "Just don't call it marriage."

Oh, Dick! Only for freedom in marriage when it's convenient for you.
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Wow, if only he felt the same about mary jane.
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Wow, if only he felt the same about mary jane.
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
My exact same sentiment.

He's finally found a pair of shoes that fit him, and walked that mile. If he'd not deferred he'd have two pairs. Shithouse!

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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
What a Dick. *BA DUMP*

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
People always seem to miss the point; that marriage should never have been something the government involved itself in, regardless of Federal or State involvement. This is where the problem lies.
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Well then we can forget about marriage tax cuts if that's the case...
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
That's not true. The government could just go through all the benefits and replace the word "marriage" with "civil union," or some other reasonable facsimile. Couples would have to apply for a civil union (or whatever they decide to call it), the criteria for being eligible for a civil union would be the same as it is for marriage now, and the benefits could be the same. They just wouldn't call it a "marriage."
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Yes, yes, yes. I've been saying this from the start. The government has no business condoning or sanctioning "marriage" in any form. Why would they? It is a nice benefit for the fed or the states to allow us to make one other individual the beneficiary of some of our financial and social benefits - there's nothing wrong with that. For them to say that it has to be a significant other as identified by a special ceremony, usually performed by the church (though with the option of a state sanctioning - e.g a justice of the peace) falls nowhere in the realm of government responsibility or duty. For them to let us choose one other beneficiary is fine, but we should have the option to make it anyone we wish (e.g. single people might wish to choose an infirm parent or friend, a widow might choose an adult child, etc.). If we are worried about the administrative difficulties of people changing their chosen beneficiary too often, we can put a time limit on how often it can be changed - it's already difficult due to the frequency of divorces out there. In any case, for the government to define what recipient we can choose is to extend the responsibility of government far beyond it's reasonable bounds into dangerous territory. What in our constitution has ever made it the duty or the interest of the US government to define our personal relationships?
By: ice-9
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
I think Dick realized that once he dies, maybe if it's legal on Earth, he and Saddam can finally get married in Hell.
By: chawx
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Personally, this doesn't bother me one way or the other. But I just wish that people would own up to the fact that the "right" they are seeking is not the "equal right" to get married, but the very "unequal right" to change the definition of marriage for everyone. Homosexuality is a perfectly natural, innate characteristic that is not necessarily suited to all things - one of them being traditional marriage. In some ways, getting married like "straights" is a form of self-denial. Why aspire to it? I was born to be short and not terribly athletic. I'm not demanding we change the definition of the NBA to make me "equal." I yam what I yam.
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Let's just place you in the shoes of another for a few moments. Let's see what your reaction is, OK?

You have been in a relationship with a person for many years and he is tragically injured in an accident. He is in the ICU of a hospital. You cannot see him. Only relatives. He later dies. You cannot carry out his wishes because he didn't have the foresight to complete a will and name you an executor.

Unequal?

So bring yourself back to your current situation with that in light. Just how does same-sex marriage affect you? You are simply either acting upon homoerotic fears or regurgitating words that you've heard without thought.
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Sorry, but you diminish your own argument with "he didn't have the foresight to complete a will and name you an executor." You quite rightly point out that there are already ways in which same sex couples can protect and manage their relationships. What good would marriage do your hypothetical couple if they"didn't have the foresight" to get married before the accident? A pretty lame example, if you ask me. Same with the accusation of homoerotic fears. Comments liike that are a sure sign of an argument bereft of reason.
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
You're wrong Awfabee.

While it is possible to hire a high-priced attorney and draw up a will that would be just as effective as a marriage certificate for purposes of inheritance, that's just one of the 1138 federal benefits of marriage enumerated by the U.S. GAO, to say nothing of the state, local, and international benefits. Some of the thousands of legal implications can be approximated by other means, like through hundreds of contracts per non-marriageable couple. Others cannot be approximated by any means other than marriage or civil union.

Consider pensions and social security benefits, family immigration, prison visitation, child custody claims, being compelled to testify against a spouse in court, property tax assessments after a death, joint bankruptcy, income tax and insurance breaks, and on and on. Even with hundreds of single-purpose contracts, there's no way to approximate most of those benefits, since they involve governments and third parties.

Allowing two dudes to get married does not change the definition of marriage any more than allowing a black woman to marry a white man does. I'm guessing Spammie's hypothetical couple would've been hypothetically married if they hypothetically had the opportunity.

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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
It was spam_vigilante's hypothetical scenario, not mine. I was merely poking the appropriate holes.

But, further to your response, I find it telling that the majority of the examples you site have nothing to do about love, and everything to do about money. Is that the real issue? How sad if it is. But then, by all means, work towards leveling the playing field, either by ensuring gay couples more, or married couples less. I'm okay either way. And call it a civil union if necessary.

But, getting back to my original point, allowing gays to "marry" most certainly changes the definition of mariage. The concept evolved over thousands of years, in diverse and seperate cultures, in several forms. But ALL versions of marriage evolved from, and are restricted to the union of male and female. That is the history and tradition of marriage. And it's a union that society can't help but have a vested interest in as it ensures the survival of our species. Try as you might, the "gay" in gay marriage will always be an asterisk.
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
You're right. Money is the real issue.

Marriage has always been a financial arrangement. It's not about the survival of the our species. It's not about love. It's about controlling property across generations, by declaring families for purposes of inheritance. Our species survives just fine with or without marriage. Marriage for love is a recent development, as a feature of modern individualistic societies. But property ownership and social status remains central, regardless of who arranged the marriage or whether love was involved.

You say marriage evolved over thousands of years and in multiple forms. That sounds like constant change to me. It's not true that all historical versions of marriage were restricted to the union of male and female until recently. It's true that the most familiar forms of marriage involve one man and at least one woman. But it's a big world out there with a long history. Many family configurations have existed.

Since the main purpose for marriage is to assign property and privilege to newborn babies, it's not surprising that most historical forms of marriage are organized around childbirth. How sad it is, indeed.

Marriage can continue to evolve. I, for one, support the advancement of society to a better place, whether in its understanding of family, or any other movement toward a better place.

To be fair, it's not proponents of gay marriage who are passing new laws to allow it. It's the opponents who are passing new laws in order to stop it.

Who's redefining marriage here?

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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Ioqi,

Forgive my presumption, but it appears to me you are looking at marriage from a relatively recent, predominantly western socio-political point of view - the "marriage contract." I'm looking at it from an evolutionary perspective. Human children cannot survive independently from birth. Evolution has favoured a stable male/female bond to ensure the creation and subsequent survival of the children. I suppose that, ever since we invented tools, the retention of property has played a roll as well. But property rights didn't create marriage. Evolution did.

States and churches have tried to codify the concept to their liking, but they didn't invent it either.

Now, what is the one defining difference of homosexuals? Their sexuality, of course. They are not predisposed to enter into a male/female bond. Ergo, they are not predisposed to marriage. Recognizing their partnerships as marriage fundamentally changes the concept.

And all I said at the outset was that denying this fact is hypocritical. I certainly want the world to accept gays for what they are. I feel that, by attempting to re-define marriage so they can "fit the mold" so to speak, gays aren't even accepting themselves for what they are. What kind of step forward is that?
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Biological evolution of humans gave us the urge to care for our children, or to abandon them. It also gave us the urge to pair (or cluster) up, or to run around town in the open or on the sly. But if you're saying marriage evolved through natural selection of genetic material among humans, I'd have to take the opposite position. I'd say if humans were naturally prone to lifelong strict monogamy, we wouldn't need marriage; it would just happen with or without codification. Marriage is a tool for controlling people against their biological urges, not a reflection of what it means to be human.

We don't have laws and social norms mandating that we eat food, or get some sleep, or take a dump when we gotta go. Those things just happen, because of our biology. But we do try to steer these activities in socially appropriate directions. We're programmed by evolution to think poo stinks, and for good reason. We're programmed by society to use a toilet, and for good reason. But using a toilet is not an innate instinct, being repelled by poo is.

Marriage evolved over a few thousand years as a cultural feature, not over hundreds of thousands of years as a genetic feature. Humans have a strong pair-bonding instinct, but we also have a strong promiscuity instinct. That's why we have marriage. We don't have dozens of regional customs about how we digest our food, but we do have such variations on how we configure our families. In societies where family lineage is important for access to privilege, marriage is very strict. In more communal societies, marriage is much looser. It's not that big a mystery why, and it's not in the genes.

But really, in this current Western controversy, it is those who would prohibit gay marriage who are changing the definition of marriage. You could say it was an oversight to have neglected to specify genders decades ago in legal definitions when there would've been less trouble, but there you have it. They need to make new laws in order to prohibit certain kinds of marriage. Just like in the past, they made new laws to prohibit polygamous marriages. Marriage changes, along with the rest of the culture.

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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Wow! You actually believe marriage is some conspiratorial construct by "them" to deny people their natural instincts? You think the male/female bond that we now know as marriage has only been around for a few thousand years because somebody told us too?

You do not understand evolution, my friend. If our instinct to roam from partner to partner and abandon our offspring was naturally stronger than our instinct to bond and form families, then modern society simply wouldn't exist. The first knob to say "thou shalt marry" would have been laughed at and then ignored.

I won't deny that most men have a biological drive to be promiscuous, but we also have brains to realize that not all natural impulses are healthy or productive in the long run. As much as I'd like to screw around, my leaving dozens of fatherless children in the world only hurts the society in which I live. (Ditto for rape, murder, theft, etc. These are natural laws whether someone writes them down or not.)

Males and females DID stay together naturally, long before the word "marriage" was even invented.

Instinctive bonding WAS marriage, just without the name, rites, rights and licences. And it was the bond between male and female. (Even pre-historic gays needed a mother and a father.)

We assign names, rites, rights and licences, (or "definitions", if you will) to all sorts of perfectly natural phenomena in addition to marriage. Think birth, death, coming of age, etc.

Or did some controlling hierarchy invent those too?

Anything that has existed for thousands of years, and continues to exist, can only be a product of natural selection. In my book, that makes homosexuality quite natural. And marriage is naturally a union of male & female. You can't have it both ways.
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
No, I say marriage as a conspiratorial construct by "us" in order to make familial affiliation publicly explicit. And I say family affiliation is important when one lives in a society that accumulates wealth and/or nobility over multiple generations. Marriage is created and refined by the culture, not by DNA.

Biological evolution doesn't give a flying turd about our society. All it cares about is which alleles happen to proliferate more than others at any given time. If culture emerges as a result, so be it. Evolution doesn't care if leaving dozens of fatherless children is good for our society. It cares whether some of those children manage to survive to make children of their own. If having fewer children, and investing in their upbringing causes more fertile grandchildren among humans than does the fuck-and-run strategy, all the traits that tend toward causing people to want to implement the more reproductively successful strategy are selected for. But what about a strategy of monogamy plus infidelity plus jealousy? The point is, that there are many competing reproductive strategies, and a complex, ever-refining blend of strategies and counterstrategies is what we see in the natural world.

Cue this up to 26:00

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/91731/detail/

You say marriage customs are a direct manifestation of innate pair-bonding urges between male and female humans. Well, that doesn't match what we see. There are vast differences in marriage customs throughout the world, though there are only tiny genetic variations among humans. There are biological urges that compete with pair-bonding urges, yet those other urges are not given a central role in organizing society. If human pair-bonding were truly such a dominant instinct, divorce would be physiologically impossible except in cases of medical pathology. And then there's the rather obvious observation that most marriage customs are largely about injunctions against infidelity, and not merely affirming a pair-bond. No, marriage is not a codification of biological urges. It is a codification of cultural norms for purposes of publicly identifying family lineages, and is strongest in cultures that care the most about unambiguous family definition.

But really, if homosexuals claim to share this pair-bonding marriage urge you describe, who are we to say they don't. You can't have it both ways.

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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
RE: "Biological evolution doesn't give a flying turd about our society."

Just where the hell do you think society and its culture comes from? Magic beans?

Evolution created society. Being social has been written into our DNA. Otherwise, all the other animals that evolved to be bigger, stronger, faster, and with far more teeth and claws would have put a quick end to puny humans. Bees & ants are social too. Are you saying they didn't evolve that way? It is a survival strategy forged by the environment, and conditional on instinct.

Like I said, you don't understand evolution. (Nor sociology, for that matter.)

RE: "There are vast differences in marriage customs throughout the world."

Don't confuse marriage "customs" with marriage. Marriage is amazingly consistent around the world - a union of male and female! Why do you think that is? People can wear different shoes, but they still walk the same. They can speak different languages, but they still talk the same. Do I need to continue?

Ultimately, you are trying to narrow your definition of marriage to one which you can then justify changing. That's your game and you're welcome to it. Just don't expect everyone to play along.

Brick wall.

Head sore.

I'm out.
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Oh Awfabee, of course the capacity for having a society emerges out of human biology. The details of those societies vary widely, and themselves subject to the algorithm of evolution, but not through genetic adaptation, rather cultural adaptation. Human cultural evolution is orders of magnitude faster than human biological evolution. Our culture is implemented as a collection of ideas in our minds and is passed down the generations through education, and is constantly refined, even within a single generation. Our biology evolves much -- much -- slower.

Humans are innately capable of creating and appreciating music. Before the mid 20th century, rock music didn't exist. Before the early 20th century, jazz didn't exist. In Europe of the middle ages, Gregorian chants were a dominant musical form, yet today they're an exotic curiosity. The human genome has scarcely budged over that timescale, but culture has advanced tremendously.

Sure being social arrises from being human. But communism, Scientology, and the Ice Capades can be found nowhere in our genes. Socioeconomic, religious , and entertainment systems rise and fall through an evolutionary process, but one that's written in our minds, not our DNA. It's a survival strategy that's worked remarkably well (so far) for humans, to have most of our social rules be learned re-learned, and adjusted, rather than inborn. It makes us remarkably adaptable, even though we have such a big ship to turn with our genetics due to our small broods, long generations, and complex genome. Cockroaches can adapt quickly using biological evolution. Humans can adapt even quicker using cultural evolution.

I'd say declaring certain kinds of marriages as non-marriages is, in fact, a narrowing of the definition of marriage. But if you're going to perceive a lack of prohibitions in certain places against gay marriage as a de-facto broadening of the meaning of marriage, and thus a change, and thus going against evolution, I find that attitude quite amusing. You do know that evolution implies change over time, right? If you're going to talk about evolution, you have to accept that things... you know... evolve.

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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Firstly, there is no such thing as "cultural evolution." Cultural tastes change. They don't "evolve." Is 50 Cent more evolved than Mozart? Is Britney Spears more evolved than Ella Fitgerald? Is Emo an "advancement" over Gregorian chanting? Hardly. It's just further proof you don't understand the concept of evolution.

You appear to be confusing cultural diversity with evolution. Reggae vs. heavy metal is an example of cultural diversity. But why does music in any form exist in the first place? It's because we have evolved to recognize sound patterns, and to communicate using symbols. In that sense, all music is the same.

Communism vs. democracy is cultural diversity. But why does government in any form exist? Because we evolved with a need and an ability to create social order. For that reason, all government is the same.

And the concept of marriage is brimming with cultural diversity. But, and this is the question you consistently refuse to address, why does marriage of any form exist in the first place? It's the evolution of the male/female bond. In that way, all marriage is the same.

Consider this. If humans had evolved to reproduce asexually - no need to pair up and swap genes - then there would be no such thing as marriage, would there? There would be no need for it. Ergo, WE DIDN'T INVENT IT. Evolution did. And to think words are going to magically re-invent it is pure folly. If we evolved to produce homosexually, then THAT would be the foundation of marriage, and heterosexuals would be the pretenders. It's not our choice. It's evolution. Please look up the definition of the word.
By: awfabee
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Re: Dick Cheney on Same-Sex Marriage
Saying marriage should be decided at state level doesn't mean he's against gay freedom, or that freedom isn't freedom for all. It should be pointed out his own daughter is gay, and so we can assume he respects gays as people too, in case any of you missed it.

I think he refers to the freedom of non-gays, the freedom to determine their definition of marriage on a societal scale. Obviously, attitudes and values vary greatly amongst the 50 states (within them as well), with almost as many stances on gay marriage. So to enact a federal one-size-fits-all law would bypass many fellow countrymen's freedom to make society their own – thus making such a law against the notion of freedom for all.

Of course, to go to the other extreme, having law determined by and extended to just an individual scale, would nullify the meaning of law, as law needs a group of people adhering to it to exist.



So, on such an issue as gay marriage, we compromise. Because equality for all, freedom for all, IS AN IDEAL. Ideally, wealth would be equally distributed. Ideally, we would all be united as one people, whole. Ideally, my shit wouldn't stink.

Idealism is pretty and seductive, but when it comes to reality, and the awareness people have ideals different to your own, you have to compromise.

Relegating the decision to state level is a compromise that approximates the IDEAL of "freedom for all" better than a federal law, because the resultant societies better reflects the values and attitudes of the people that constitute them.

And for those who frown indignant, and think it's only the crusty old conservatives that don't want gay marriage laws, why don't you ask Obama what he'd make of it?
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