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Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
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An interviewer asks a thought provoking question of pro-life advocates.
Nov 4, 2009 2:31 AM
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
There is no PRO-LIFE , only ANTI-CHOICE.
I know of no one who goes around suggesting that women get as many abortions as they possibly can. Just as there is no PRO-ABORTION crowd, there is no such thing as PRO-LIFE because quite frankly, these people are mostly in the Bible Belt and support the death penalty. Ironic, eh?
I know of no one who goes around suggesting that women get as many abortions as they possibly can. Just as there is no PRO-ABORTION crowd, there is no such thing as PRO-LIFE because quite frankly, these people are mostly in the Bible Belt and support the death penalty. Ironic, eh?
By: spam_vigilante
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
Shucks, Spam, we southern babble-thumpers just love to stand outside in the fresh air and sunshine with our fellow babble-thumpers as we imagine all the pretty, white, Chrischun babies fat, happy, and playin' on playgrounds with their smilin' mamas 'n daddies, all the while readin' their bibles, luvin' the Lord, and keepin' parity with the Muslim population.
See, while we're busy standin' out here, we don't have to think about the diseased, starvin', abandoned, addicted, and unloved, yet born, children in the world who just might benefit greatly from just half of the energy that we put into supporting the birth of more kids just like them. We all know the story of the good samaritan, but if we don't pass any sick babies on the street, it don't count, right?
You see, while we're busy not loving our neighbors and feeling self-righteous about it, we don't have to live with the idea that sometimes the greater good and the greater evil are oftentimes the same thing.
As far as the babies are concerned, it just depends on which side of the vagina yer on.
See, while we're busy standin' out here, we don't have to think about the diseased, starvin', abandoned, addicted, and unloved, yet born, children in the world who just might benefit greatly from just half of the energy that we put into supporting the birth of more kids just like them. We all know the story of the good samaritan, but if we don't pass any sick babies on the street, it don't count, right?
You see, while we're busy not loving our neighbors and feeling self-righteous about it, we don't have to live with the idea that sometimes the greater good and the greater evil are oftentimes the same thing.
As far as the babies are concerned, it just depends on which side of the vagina yer on.
By: kooolcat
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
Interesting, I was expecting more hostility towards women who have abortions, since the pro-choice movement cliams that the "anti-choicers" are actually motivated by a desire to control women, rather than to protect the unborn.
By: poonhound
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
Jeez, Poon, for someone who so strongly objects to wealth redistribution, you don't seem to have much trouble when the "wealth" in question is someone's own body. If you can find a way for a fetus to live without the help of the woman who doesn't want it inside her, I say have at it.
Even if you see a clump of cells as a full human being morally equivalent to the actual human being that is the woman, you still have to account for the fact that one of these humans is incapable of life anywhere but inside the body of the other one.
How do you square the idea of forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy for a few months and then passing a bowling ball on behalf of preserving someone else's life, with a philosophy against taking from the rich and giving to the poor? Poor people do die for lack of physical resources held by rich people, you know.
Even if you see a clump of cells as a full human being morally equivalent to the actual human being that is the woman, you still have to account for the fact that one of these humans is incapable of life anywhere but inside the body of the other one.
How do you square the idea of forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy for a few months and then passing a bowling ball on behalf of preserving someone else's life, with a philosophy against taking from the rich and giving to the poor? Poor people do die for lack of physical resources held by rich people, you know.
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
1) That is an interesting argument, becuase there has been serious advancements in the field of ectogenesis, or artificial wombs, and so pro-choicer's may have to adress the moral issues of fetal extraction as apposed to fetal termination sometime soon. Abortion could be made illegal in the United states becuase of this technology.
2)If we do believe that an unborn human organism is morally equivalent to a born one, then the status of its humanity must trump the inconvenience of pregnancy, just as we cannot allow for the euthanasia of a premature infant due to the inconveniece to its care-givers.
3)This is because the infant child has a right to their own property, i.e. their own existance, and yet the nature of childhood precludes any abitlity for personal responsibility or survival on behalf of that child, until it reaces adulthood.
Also, socialism does not allieviate the suffering of the poor better than a capitalist system does, There has been no greater force to create more wealth (i.e. physical resources) and distribute it to more poor people than free market capitalism.
Using your logic, one could successfully make the argument more poor people die because of wealth redistribution than have because of income inequality.
2)If we do believe that an unborn human organism is morally equivalent to a born one, then the status of its humanity must trump the inconvenience of pregnancy, just as we cannot allow for the euthanasia of a premature infant due to the inconveniece to its care-givers.
3)This is because the infant child has a right to their own property, i.e. their own existance, and yet the nature of childhood precludes any abitlity for personal responsibility or survival on behalf of that child, until it reaces adulthood.
Also, socialism does not allieviate the suffering of the poor better than a capitalist system does, There has been no greater force to create more wealth (i.e. physical resources) and distribute it to more poor people than free market capitalism.
Using your logic, one could successfully make the argument more poor people die because of wealth redistribution than have because of income inequality.
By: poonhound
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
Who said anything about socialism? We can argue forever about whether capitalism systematically destroys our planet and forces 98% of everybody into servitude, but all I said was that in other circumstances you object to taking property from someone and giving it to someone else.
Reducing this to a property dispute can illuminate the contradiction. If your house will slide down a muddy slope into the river unless I keep my truck parked in front of it, what do you do if I move my truck rather than let it get scuffed up saving your house?
Or this: You have an accident and your insurance company turns out to have a loophole in the contract saying it doesn't cover being hit by a meteorite. The hospital refuses to treat you until you come up with a huge pile of cash while unconscious.
Reducing this to a property dispute can illuminate the contradiction. If your house will slide down a muddy slope into the river unless I keep my truck parked in front of it, what do you do if I move my truck rather than let it get scuffed up saving your house?
Or this: You have an accident and your insurance company turns out to have a loophole in the contract saying it doesn't cover being hit by a meteorite. The hospital refuses to treat you until you come up with a huge pile of cash while unconscious.
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
Taking property from someone and giving it to someone else is socialism.
If you moved your truck, I might call you an un-ethical dickhead, but I wouldn't call you a criminal.
I really hope that I don't get forced to pay extra for meteorite insurance. Would you want to pay for meteorite insurance?
My guess it would be covered under the catastrophic bodily injury clause anyway, so I would sue them when I woke up.
If you moved your truck, I might call you an un-ethical dickhead, but I wouldn't call you a criminal.
I really hope that I don't get forced to pay extra for meteorite insurance. Would you want to pay for meteorite insurance?
My guess it would be covered under the catastrophic bodily injury clause anyway, so I would sue them when I woke up.
By: poonhound
Re: A question for Pro-Lifers
So someone who evicts someone else's bundle of cells from her body is an unethical dickhead but not a criminal.
After the ectogenesis industry gets geared up to take over for the abortion industry, I sure hope I don't have to pay extra for ectogenesis insurance. Would you want to pay for ectogenesis insurance? Suppose she doesn't want to fork out three quarters of a million dollars to turn that carefully extracted blastocyst into an orphan human baby. If it were up to me, I'd rather spend that tax money on thousands of school lunches, dozens of college educations, and a couple of pieces of public art. But that's just me being a socialist.
After the ectogenesis industry gets geared up to take over for the abortion industry, I sure hope I don't have to pay extra for ectogenesis insurance. Would you want to pay for ectogenesis insurance? Suppose she doesn't want to fork out three quarters of a million dollars to turn that carefully extracted blastocyst into an orphan human baby. If it were up to me, I'd rather spend that tax money on thousands of school lunches, dozens of college educations, and a couple of pieces of public art. But that's just me being a socialist.
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Wait: I'm confused.
Is it that they believe the women don't matter that much, so they never considered the women ("Will no one think of the children?!")?
OR
Is it that they believe that their cause is futile, and they'll never win? A Sisyphean feat, just go out every week with your bloody posters and your decapitated babydolls in your strollers and wait for the one honking car in a dozen, but never think of what comes next?
My gut wants me to say it's the first, because I want to make them The Other. But my compassion leaks in, and I get all secondy on myself. Booge needs a nap.
Also: last lady was totally going to say some Hail Marys for that interrogator.
Is it that they believe the women don't matter that much, so they never considered the women ("Will no one think of the children?!")?
OR
Is it that they believe that their cause is futile, and they'll never win? A Sisyphean feat, just go out every week with your bloody posters and your decapitated babydolls in your strollers and wait for the one honking car in a dozen, but never think of what comes next?
My gut wants me to say it's the first, because I want to make them The Other. But my compassion leaks in, and I get all secondy on myself. Booge needs a nap.
Also: last lady was totally going to say some Hail Marys for that interrogator.
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
No, you've completely and absolutely missed the point here.
The point trying to be conveyed is that the reason why these people are hesitant to prescribe a penalty for abortions is because they don't even think it's tantamount to murder themselves, or at least not completely to murder of a human being who has been born.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the two reasons you've pointed out here.
As for myself, I think the results are interesting. On the other hand, I think it says little, as I agree with the person below that the attitude among these people is more that the abortionist is the "murderer" rather than the woman on whom it is performed.
As for the first comment by spam_vigilante, I think "anti-choice" is as loaded of a term as "pro-life." To say that you are "pro-abortion" to me is the same as saying you are "pro-death penalty": it doesn't mean you want as many death penalties to happen as possible, but you want the option there if it is applicable.
The point trying to be conveyed is that the reason why these people are hesitant to prescribe a penalty for abortions is because they don't even think it's tantamount to murder themselves, or at least not completely to murder of a human being who has been born.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the two reasons you've pointed out here.
As for myself, I think the results are interesting. On the other hand, I think it says little, as I agree with the person below that the attitude among these people is more that the abortionist is the "murderer" rather than the woman on whom it is performed.
As for the first comment by spam_vigilante, I think "anti-choice" is as loaded of a term as "pro-life." To say that you are "pro-abortion" to me is the same as saying you are "pro-death penalty": it doesn't mean you want as many death penalties to happen as possible, but you want the option there if it is applicable.
By: Deh_Dude
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
I don't think I've missed the point. I think my opinion differs from yours. I didn't see what you saw, but I don't think I missed the point.
I do think they think it's murder. Ever listened to the Catholic radio station where they say the Stations of the Cross and do Hail Marys for unborn fetuses and their souls? (Long story, I have.)
According to Catholicism (and you may already know this), these souls still have original sin, haven't been cleansed of it through baptism, so for some people they aren't guaranteed to go to heaven even though they are little babies. Surreal and strange? Welcome to religion.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
I do think these particular people are filled with a lot more mercy toward murderers than the average human being, though.
I don't understand your last comment. People who don't want abortion to be legal do not want women to be able to have a choice in the matter. The reason why I use that term ("anti-choice") is that I get extremely frustrated when they talk about "choosing life," because they put themselves squarely in the choice camp when they do that. They don't want anyone to have a choice--everyone, whether they were gangraped in Afghanistan or the victim of incest or drugged by a guy in a bar or about to give birth to a baby with no brain or just not wanting to be pregnant right now, everyone should have to have that baby, whether they want to or not. That's not a choice.
I do think they think it's murder. Ever listened to the Catholic radio station where they say the Stations of the Cross and do Hail Marys for unborn fetuses and their souls? (Long story, I have.)
According to Catholicism (and you may already know this), these souls still have original sin, haven't been cleansed of it through baptism, so for some people they aren't guaranteed to go to heaven even though they are little babies. Surreal and strange? Welcome to religion.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea5.asp
I do think these particular people are filled with a lot more mercy toward murderers than the average human being, though.
I don't understand your last comment. People who don't want abortion to be legal do not want women to be able to have a choice in the matter. The reason why I use that term ("anti-choice") is that I get extremely frustrated when they talk about "choosing life," because they put themselves squarely in the choice camp when they do that. They don't want anyone to have a choice--everyone, whether they were gangraped in Afghanistan or the victim of incest or drugged by a guy in a bar or about to give birth to a baby with no brain or just not wanting to be pregnant right now, everyone should have to have that baby, whether they want to or not. That's not a choice.
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Though not very articulate, I imagine that these folks want the penalties directed toward the people performing the abortions. They seem to believe the women asking for the procedure are victims of an irresistible option. Their hesitation in wanting to punish the women makes them seem more compassionate than I previously thought, not more crazy. Kind of a blame the dealer not the junkie approach.
Anyway, their responses are amazingly shortsighted but all we can do is pray for them. Well, I can't but...
Anyway, their responses are amazingly shortsighted but all we can do is pray for them. Well, I can't but...
By: athomascrawley
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
They use the talking point that abortion is exactly like murder, but when it comes down to it, they don't even believe it themselves.
Here's a thought experiment. Imagine there's someone who will die unless he gets a blood transfusion, and another person is the only possible donor in the world. Would it be murder for the potential donor to say no?
They want to attack the doctors because it's easier to target them. Making abortion illegal just drives it into crappier conditions, but the rate stays around 3% of fertile women, whether legal or illegal, everywhere in the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8305217.stm
Here's a thought experiment. Imagine there's someone who will die unless he gets a blood transfusion, and another person is the only possible donor in the world. Would it be murder for the potential donor to say no?
They want to attack the doctors because it's easier to target them. Making abortion illegal just drives it into crappier conditions, but the rate stays around 3% of fertile women, whether legal or illegal, everywhere in the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8305217.stm
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
I agree with your statement that these people seem to see women as the victims of a society that pushes them to abortion. In fact, most if not all of the pro-lifers I've met seem to hold this view of women being victimized and not the victimizers rather than the view that women's reproductive options ought to be controlled, which much of the pro-choice crowd seems to believe.
However, this provokes no sympathy from me for these pro-life advocates. As a female, I am equally offended by the notion that I do not have the intellegence and/or agency to ever make a choice for myself alone as I am by the notion that my reproductive rights should be controlled. That's great if they don't believe in the government control of women's reproductive choices (which I think is the case for the most part), but their supposed empathy for the woman as the "victim" is equally misplaced.
However, this provokes no sympathy from me for these pro-life advocates. As a female, I am equally offended by the notion that I do not have the intellegence and/or agency to ever make a choice for myself alone as I am by the notion that my reproductive rights should be controlled. That's great if they don't believe in the government control of women's reproductive choices (which I think is the case for the most part), but their supposed empathy for the woman as the "victim" is equally misplaced.
By: keleona
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
I believe most (all but one?) didn't have an answer because they hadn't been instructed how to answer...
By: gamedrone
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
MODS: Flag this comment for extreme accuracy. Thank you.
By: chawx
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Flag: This post is extremely accurate.
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
i guess there must be an answer somewhere in the bible! the old testament has a slough of answers for shit like that! or maybe it doesn't. i really don't care. what i do care about is that they rally against abortion, which is their right, but have no idea why. they say it's a taking of a life. so is war. i don't see them protesting against that! so is capital punishment, are they protesting that? ugh, i dunno why they even bother to protest at all, women are going to get abortions whether it's legal or not.
By: ritterkreuz
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
I'm not one for abortion, but I'm not one for rendering it illegal. As far as I know, the legalization of abortions was not made with the intent of killing babies, but saving mothers' lives. Until legalization, many women died of complications from botched abortions
The pregnant woman who goes to an abortion does not go there out for fun.
Of course, women will often get one done by their own will, but sometimes they are actually pushed to do so (I've had a few friends come to me ask for help after the boyfriend was pressuring them for an abortion, contrary to what they wanted even if the pregnancy was an accident).
No, if anything, we should not render abortion illegal if one simply sees it as an encouragement to use the service. Instead, we should push education on birth control and options available such as counseling in the advent of a pregnancy to be able to make sure an abortion is what you want, without peer pressure from either side of the issue.
Like one woman said, it's between her and God (if you believe in the first place). If she's pushed to this action, so be it, but at least don't add to her anguish by forcing her to go see a witch doctor with a coat hanger in a dark alley...
The pregnant woman who goes to an abortion does not go there out for fun.
Of course, women will often get one done by their own will, but sometimes they are actually pushed to do so (I've had a few friends come to me ask for help after the boyfriend was pressuring them for an abortion, contrary to what they wanted even if the pregnancy was an accident).
No, if anything, we should not render abortion illegal if one simply sees it as an encouragement to use the service. Instead, we should push education on birth control and options available such as counseling in the advent of a pregnancy to be able to make sure an abortion is what you want, without peer pressure from either side of the issue.
Like one woman said, it's between her and God (if you believe in the first place). If she's pushed to this action, so be it, but at least don't add to her anguish by forcing her to go see a witch doctor with a coat hanger in a dark alley...
By: blindtetra
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
MODS: While your at it. Flag this comment for accuracy as well. Especially this part, "...at least don't add to her anguish by forcing her to go see a witch doctor with a coat hanger in a dark alley... "
By: chawx
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Hope I wasn't misunderstood : I was talkinga about how we should NOT render abortion illegal so women are not forced to head to sketchy people for botched abortions.
By: blindtetra
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
MODS: While your at it. Flag this comment for accuracy as well. Especially this part, "...at least don't add to her anguish by forcing her to go see a witch doctor with a coat hanger in a dark alley... "
By: chawx
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Babies usually don't get aborted unless the life of the mother is in accute danger, I think. What you mean is fetus or embrio.
We regard babies as persons, but the notion that a fertilized egg inside a woman's body is also a person is ludicrous. So, when does that thing become a person? A question that is relevant and the answer is well established. Once gods enter the equasion all bets are off though. One can put all the words one wants into the mouths of the invisibles. Those sky pilots won't ever contradict.
We regard babies as persons, but the notion that a fertilized egg inside a woman's body is also a person is ludicrous. So, when does that thing become a person? A question that is relevant and the answer is well established. Once gods enter the equasion all bets are off though. One can put all the words one wants into the mouths of the invisibles. Those sky pilots won't ever contradict.
By: wadadde
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
I don't recall where I read or heard it (probably on another link here) but the phrase "what something will become is irrelevant. For the first few months, it's nothing but a clump of cells."
Why do people draw the line at where sperm meets egg? Does a magical soul dance into those two cell zygotes at that moment and now it's human? At that point all the rest of the cells in my body are equally complex. Even up to the 1st trimester the fetus isn't that much different from most animal fetus. Hell, it still has a tail! You're more likely to step on something more sentient on the way to your protest.
Why do people draw the line at where sperm meets egg? Does a magical soul dance into those two cell zygotes at that moment and now it's human? At that point all the rest of the cells in my body are equally complex. Even up to the 1st trimester the fetus isn't that much different from most animal fetus. Hell, it still has a tail! You're more likely to step on something more sentient on the way to your protest.
By: Faffy
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
I think people obsess about the moment sperm meets egg because our civilization is obsessed with making rules. It's not that that particular half hour is any more significant than any other half hour. It's just that it's easy to point at a discreet event. Like most rules, it doesn't make sense, but it does have a clear definition to use as a convenient handle, which is more important than making sense when it comes to rules.
Most of us are just not all that comfortable with loose rules giving room for personal judgment and interpretation because they require trust in ourselves and others. Many would rather have our thinking done in advance and delivered as a list of abstract rules to be applied to all situations without further consideration. That way we don't have any personal responsibility but to be obedient.
It's easier to imagine there's a magic soul dance at conception, than to imagine that it takes years for a blastocyst to become a fully differentiated human being in a series of overlapping biological processes that nobody really understands.
Most of us are just not all that comfortable with loose rules giving room for personal judgment and interpretation because they require trust in ourselves and others. Many would rather have our thinking done in advance and delivered as a list of abstract rules to be applied to all situations without further consideration. That way we don't have any personal responsibility but to be obedient.
It's easier to imagine there's a magic soul dance at conception, than to imagine that it takes years for a blastocyst to become a fully differentiated human being in a series of overlapping biological processes that nobody really understands.
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Watching that woman at the end do the catholic ritual cross thing made me cringe. How can we still have humans who believe in crazy shit like this? Aaaaagh!
By: quaidbrown
Re: Should Women Be Punished for Having Abortions?
Not that it was a cinematic masterpiece, but there's a movie called "Mean Creek" which has a line (completely unrelated to abortion) used which I think is applicable here:
"If you don't know, then you probably shouldn't be making decisions".
"If you don't know, then you probably shouldn't be making decisions".
By: hypersapien
