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Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
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“We don’t want to fight anymore, but if we have to fight again, it’ll be to take these steps.”
Dec 14, 2008 12:03 PM
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
"We don't want to fight any more. But if we have to fight? It'll be to take these steps..."
Heroes always lead. And heroes always do what needs be done.
And every man in this video? He's a hero thrice over.
No matter what the cowards who never served sitting safely on their couches might say...
Heroes always lead. And heroes always do what needs be done.
And every man in this video? He's a hero thrice over.
No matter what the cowards who never served sitting safely on their couches might say...
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Oh come on, now! Without Mr. Five Deferments, we'd never be in Iraq now.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Where are these guys now? Thats what I want to know...
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
I have my medals and I am proud of them. I could never throw them. To each their own. That is why we live in a democratic society. This way people can loathe where they live.
By: Wickedray
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Thanks for your service. Like some other folks at M&C, I have my medals, too. But I'm not proud of a bunch of ribbons and pieces of metal I got for my service.
Rather, I'm proud of the men and women I served with. I'm proud of our dedication.
But what I'm not proud about? Which I share with the men in this clip? Is when our public servants make decisions that stand directly against the will of the American taxpayers who have paid for unjust policies, mismanaged wars, and corporate influence and gain - especially when these egregious actions have caused our American taxpayers to pay the ultimate sacrifice. These ain't no Senator's sons.
Which is why these heroes used their medals to publicly stand up and draw attention to this injustice in hopes to save future American lives and tax dollars. They put American lives and tax dollars above their "medals" - and above their "pride."
Thus it's unfortunate you would seemingly malign these heroes by implying they "loathe where they live" simply because they value their ideals and the lives of their fellow Americans over a few trinkets in a dresser drawer. In fact, most folks can clearly see how much these men truly love America - and that they continue to be ever vigilant in the face of tyranny at home or abroad.
But this is indeed a democratic society. Even to those who hold a "love it or leave it" mentality. So thanks again for your service. And you enjoy those medals now.
Rather, I'm proud of the men and women I served with. I'm proud of our dedication.
But what I'm not proud about? Which I share with the men in this clip? Is when our public servants make decisions that stand directly against the will of the American taxpayers who have paid for unjust policies, mismanaged wars, and corporate influence and gain - especially when these egregious actions have caused our American taxpayers to pay the ultimate sacrifice. These ain't no Senator's sons.
Which is why these heroes used their medals to publicly stand up and draw attention to this injustice in hopes to save future American lives and tax dollars. They put American lives and tax dollars above their "medals" - and above their "pride."
Thus it's unfortunate you would seemingly malign these heroes by implying they "loathe where they live" simply because they value their ideals and the lives of their fellow Americans over a few trinkets in a dresser drawer. In fact, most folks can clearly see how much these men truly love America - and that they continue to be ever vigilant in the face of tyranny at home or abroad.
But this is indeed a democratic society. Even to those who hold a "love it or leave it" mentality. So thanks again for your service. And you enjoy those medals now.
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Well put buckinghamgreen... that other guy just didn't get it. Way to break it down nice and slow....and thanks, to ALL men and women in our military! I want to see you all come home!
By: chawx
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Spot on. For the record, I'm proud of my medals. But I was lucky enough to serve in a peace-keeping campaign in the former Yugoslavia, and a drug fighting mission in the Horn of Africa. In both cases, unlike many of the Vietnam vets, I had the luxury of believing in my mission.
I grimace when I hear other service members, either active or discharged, self-righteously allude to their own part in preserving a protector's right to free speech. More often than not, it's dissent, not piquant conformity, that forms the backbone of patriotism. Love it or leave it? During the Revolution, we either called people with that attitude "Tories" or "Canadians." And after that, the ranks of our greatest historical figures have continued to include many who reached their place in history through protest and defiance of the status quo. And thank God they did, because I don't know that would have enlisted to defend a country where a black man could be told he had to eat in a different place than me. Or where women were told they had no more say than a child does in our political system. So you might have served so that hippies could "loathe where they live," but those hippies also protested so your service would mean something.
You know what the great fallacy of C. M. Province's 'It is the Soldier' is? He neglects the fact that it's the reporter that keeps the citizen informed about the true state of the democracy, and the campus organizer that keeps the power structure in check, and the lawyer that preserves the individual rights of men, and it's the protester that helps challenge the black-and-white, 'you're either with us or against us' view of the world that makes a populace so ripe for tyranny. My point is that democracy is preserved through more than picking up a rifle and fighting in a far-away land--it requires the diligence of every citizen at home, as well.
I grimace when I hear other service members, either active or discharged, self-righteously allude to their own part in preserving a protector's right to free speech. More often than not, it's dissent, not piquant conformity, that forms the backbone of patriotism. Love it or leave it? During the Revolution, we either called people with that attitude "Tories" or "Canadians." And after that, the ranks of our greatest historical figures have continued to include many who reached their place in history through protest and defiance of the status quo. And thank God they did, because I don't know that would have enlisted to defend a country where a black man could be told he had to eat in a different place than me. Or where women were told they had no more say than a child does in our political system. So you might have served so that hippies could "loathe where they live," but those hippies also protested so your service would mean something.
You know what the great fallacy of C. M. Province's 'It is the Soldier' is? He neglects the fact that it's the reporter that keeps the citizen informed about the true state of the democracy, and the campus organizer that keeps the power structure in check, and the lawyer that preserves the individual rights of men, and it's the protester that helps challenge the black-and-white, 'you're either with us or against us' view of the world that makes a populace so ripe for tyranny. My point is that democracy is preserved through more than picking up a rifle and fighting in a far-away land--it requires the diligence of every citizen at home, as well.
By: Oh-Deeh
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Obviously, any instance of the word "protector" in this post should be replaced with "protester." My apologies for typing without my glasses.
By: Oh-Deeh
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
F*#K you and your service. How many brown people did you kill? You were not a child, you chose to carry out your orders like the Nazis at Auchvitz. You are morally responsible for your actions and you should be held into account. You followed orders to commit a war crime and you should have been punished. You are no hero.
If a war is unjust, and you sign up to fight it or you don't burn your draft card in protest, then you're actions are unjust for fighting. Plain and simple. Even the Nuremburg principles understand that.
Take Iraq for example. Everyone here agrees that Iraq is an illegal genocidal war crime ordered by that fascist Bush. Well, someone is pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs, and it ain't W. Its the volunteer hatchetmen for the Bush/Zionist/Haliburton Cabal - thats who. I'm sick of so called "progressives" who infantilize our military as if they are a bunch of children or robots who just do what they are told. The buck stops with you.
Hopefully I'm articulating what chawx and buckinghamgreen are actually thinking, otherwise they are just useful idiots.
If a war is unjust, and you sign up to fight it or you don't burn your draft card in protest, then you're actions are unjust for fighting. Plain and simple. Even the Nuremburg principles understand that.
Take Iraq for example. Everyone here agrees that Iraq is an illegal genocidal war crime ordered by that fascist Bush. Well, someone is pulling the triggers and dropping the bombs, and it ain't W. Its the volunteer hatchetmen for the Bush/Zionist/Haliburton Cabal - thats who. I'm sick of so called "progressives" who infantilize our military as if they are a bunch of children or robots who just do what they are told. The buck stops with you.
Hopefully I'm articulating what chawx and buckinghamgreen are actually thinking, otherwise they are just useful idiots.
By: poonhound
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Clearly, that "black-and-white" world view that I mentioned above can be just as ridiculous, and possibly even more dangerous, in the hands of a dissenter as if it were in the hands of a conformist. Way to over-simplify things in the name of ignorant, righteous indignation.
First, you don't know where wickedray served; we don't know that he or she served in Vietnam or Iraq.
Second, you don't even know what he or she did there. Would you still condemn someone for working in a field hospital to patch up those wounded by an unjust war?
Third, you should probably pick up some literature on this subject before you condemn someone's service outright. I would suggest Jean Elshtain's "Just War Theory," as a good starting point. Because even if wickedray volunteered to serve in the infantry during the Vietnam War, and even if we take it as a given that it was an unjust war, it's still possible that he could have undertaken purely just actions. I know that takes a higher order of abstract thought to accept, but I promise it is possible. Want an example of what just action can mean in the face of egregious injustice? Look up what Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. did in My Lai, and then ask yourself how you feel about him. I don't know shit about wickedray. But what I do know is that while not every soldier has the moral courage to do what Thompson did, not every soldier is as morally bankrupt as William Calley, and you'd do well to remember that before you blindly shit on someone's service.
And here are some other pointers for the next time you start making protesters look even worse than you already have, kid:
Statements like, "Everyone here agrees that..." shifts the onus of proof away from yourself, when you have to realize that absolutes are incredibly easy to break down in an argument. I myself don't think we should have ever gone into Iraq, and I can cite countless instances of mismanagement during this war, but you'll never hear me tell someone that the war is one big "illegal genocidal war crime."
Also, you should challenge yourself to avoid the "reductio ad Hitlerum," argument if for no other reason than it just takes so little imagination to find any weak connection to Hitler or the Nazis. Also, there's that pesky little problem of watering down the significance of their atrocities more and more with each sloppy Nazi reference.
First, you don't know where wickedray served; we don't know that he or she served in Vietnam or Iraq.
Second, you don't even know what he or she did there. Would you still condemn someone for working in a field hospital to patch up those wounded by an unjust war?
Third, you should probably pick up some literature on this subject before you condemn someone's service outright. I would suggest Jean Elshtain's "Just War Theory," as a good starting point. Because even if wickedray volunteered to serve in the infantry during the Vietnam War, and even if we take it as a given that it was an unjust war, it's still possible that he could have undertaken purely just actions. I know that takes a higher order of abstract thought to accept, but I promise it is possible. Want an example of what just action can mean in the face of egregious injustice? Look up what Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. did in My Lai, and then ask yourself how you feel about him. I don't know shit about wickedray. But what I do know is that while not every soldier has the moral courage to do what Thompson did, not every soldier is as morally bankrupt as William Calley, and you'd do well to remember that before you blindly shit on someone's service.
And here are some other pointers for the next time you start making protesters look even worse than you already have, kid:
Statements like, "Everyone here agrees that..." shifts the onus of proof away from yourself, when you have to realize that absolutes are incredibly easy to break down in an argument. I myself don't think we should have ever gone into Iraq, and I can cite countless instances of mismanagement during this war, but you'll never hear me tell someone that the war is one big "illegal genocidal war crime."
Also, you should challenge yourself to avoid the "reductio ad Hitlerum," argument if for no other reason than it just takes so little imagination to find any weak connection to Hitler or the Nazis. Also, there's that pesky little problem of watering down the significance of their atrocities more and more with each sloppy Nazi reference.
By: Oh-Deeh
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
You neglected to tell him (truthfully so) that he lacks the testicles to have burned his draft card.
Blowhards who come into Internet forums full of their own bluster rarely have any supporting evidence based upon fact or reality.
Blowhards who come into Internet forums full of their own bluster rarely have any supporting evidence based upon fact or reality.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Since I couldn't put it better than Oh-Deeh just did, I'd simply like to reiterate the excellent point that no one is knocking wickedray's service.
I may not agree with wickedray's characterization of these Vietnam Vet heroes. But my disagreement on this point has nothing to do with wickedray's service which I expect has been honorable.
I may not agree with wickedray's characterization of these Vietnam Vet heroes. But my disagreement on this point has nothing to do with wickedray's service which I expect has been honorable.
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Thanks. I don't think this is the first time we've tipped hats at each other on here. If you're ever in Austin, Tx, please let me know, and I'll buy you a beer.
By: Oh-Deeh
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
True, true... And beer's on me should you find yourself in Portland, Oregon.
I did a summer-long motorcycle trip a few years back and ended up spending 9/11 (yeah, *that* 9/11) and a few days after in Austin. Very surreal but probably the perfect place to be. Sound Exchange, Ben Snakepit, Emos, Beerland, etc.
Say hello to Willie Nelson and Daniel Johnston if you see 'em.
I did a summer-long motorcycle trip a few years back and ended up spending 9/11 (yeah, *that* 9/11) and a few days after in Austin. Very surreal but probably the perfect place to be. Sound Exchange, Ben Snakepit, Emos, Beerland, etc.
Say hello to Willie Nelson and Daniel Johnston if you see 'em.
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
And to call the majority of our troops "volunteer hatchetmen for the Bush/Zionist/Haliburton Cabal" is pretty damn unfair. Most of our troops are minorities from the poorest cities that are pulled into service with aggressive recruiting, unfulfilled college and job promises, and commercials of marines climbing sheer rock faces and killing flying magma golems. Most of these kids, and yes most of them are still kids cognitively ( i think 20 is about the average age many people really begin to understand themselves) don't realize what they are into until they find if they don't like it, too bad, you are court martialed and in jail if you change your mind.
Let me be clear,I am in no way trying to diminish the sacrifice, terror, and courage that goes on in the hearts and minds of these youth. But our youth in uniform are not bent on corporate servitude, third world enslavement and one world government establishment. And if any of them are, then they can rot in that hot sandy desert.
Please stop giving people who detest senseless violence and misery a bad name. Most of those guys are doing what you and I don't have the cajones to do.
Let me be clear,I am in no way trying to diminish the sacrifice, terror, and courage that goes on in the hearts and minds of these youth. But our youth in uniform are not bent on corporate servitude, third world enslavement and one world government establishment. And if any of them are, then they can rot in that hot sandy desert.
Please stop giving people who detest senseless violence and misery a bad name. Most of those guys are doing what you and I don't have the cajones to do.
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
I may not have the cajones to drop cluster bombs from 30 thousand feet onto villages, but I don't want to either.
At least someone agrees with me that there is nothing honorable in serving in our military, particularly when it goes on a rampage of destruction in order to steal the resources of the third world. If enlistees aren't "bent on corporate servitude" then they wouldn't sign up in the first place. They have a moral responisbility to investigate and understand that before they go out and do it. No excuse for being ignorant. The path to hell is paved in good intentions.
Our military may consist mainly of poor, ignorant children who lack the intelectual capacity to understand right from wrong - just as you are saying here - however, you know where else there are poor children? Buried in thousands of graves throughout Iraq, put there by our troops.
Sorry for slaying that sacred cow. If you were a German citizen in the 1930s would you "support the Nazi troops?" when they invaded Poland? I thought not. Be honest with yourself. The more that progressives speak the truth, the quicker we can have real revolutionary change, and just maybe stop America from burning the world into oblivion.
At least someone agrees with me that there is nothing honorable in serving in our military, particularly when it goes on a rampage of destruction in order to steal the resources of the third world. If enlistees aren't "bent on corporate servitude" then they wouldn't sign up in the first place. They have a moral responisbility to investigate and understand that before they go out and do it. No excuse for being ignorant. The path to hell is paved in good intentions.
Our military may consist mainly of poor, ignorant children who lack the intelectual capacity to understand right from wrong - just as you are saying here - however, you know where else there are poor children? Buried in thousands of graves throughout Iraq, put there by our troops.
Sorry for slaying that sacred cow. If you were a German citizen in the 1930s would you "support the Nazi troops?" when they invaded Poland? I thought not. Be honest with yourself. The more that progressives speak the truth, the quicker we can have real revolutionary change, and just maybe stop America from burning the world into oblivion.
By: poonhound
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Ha ha! ...Oh, you.
Not every German was a Nazi. Many Germans, if not most, were ignorant about the concentration camps. If anything, the average German citizen was guilty of about as much as the average Californian was when we shipped Japanese Americans off to concentration camps. History doesn't damn the Third Reich because they invaded Poland; we curse them because they gassed millions of people. Most Germans felt that the onset of the blitzkrieg was a reclamation of what was taken from Germany after the first world war. Indeed, America warned France and England from forcing such severe reparations on Germany for the very reason that it might unite Germans against the rest of Europe. I could go on about that last paragraph of yours, but instead I'll just shake my head and laugh because you failed to take my advice. Way to prove Godwin's law, twice in one discussion.
And it is a little annoying to hear even sympathetic hearts bleed for the poor, ignorant wretches who are forced by their lot in life to serve in the military. I myself came from a family that could afford to send me to college, and I easily could have slept my way through state school. But I enlisted not because I was desperate, but because I wanted discipline, and because it was such an obvious way to give back to the country that has taken such good care of me. What's more, I was hardly a rarity, either. It's true that I've met some real block-heads in the Army, but I've also met some brilliant, well-to-do enlisted men and women who signed up because they simply felt like they should do their part, as well.
Ok, a lot of kids--and plenty of other essentially innocent people--have died in Iraq. But to blame the guy on the ground, rather than focus on the leadership like we ought to, is to exacerbate the problem, rather than solve it. It's that sort of attitude that allowed us to make a circus of the Abu Ghraib hearings while the leadership who truly dropped the ball in preventing that mess got away. And maybe a minority of service members are out to claim as many slaves for the afterlife as possible, but most soldiers and marines are like my friend who can't sleep because he sees that same Iraqi kid (that one who ran past his tank with some American Willy P burning a hole through his face) every time he closes his eyes. That is to say, most are just coping with what they're asked to do. Most are doing no more or less than taking care of the guy next to him or her. And I doubt that there are any more sociopaths running around wearing American uniforms than there are wearing suits and ties.
If we weren't "bent on cooperate servitude" then we wouldn't sign up in the first place? Can you back that up? Or did you once again pull some fantastic crap out of your ass? In fact, there are quite a few like myself, who enlisted despite the possibility of cooperate servitude, but I don't know anyone who signed up because of it. And we were also the ones that have enough faith in the American democracy to believe that people would do more than post smarmy comments on internet forums in order to protect us from such corporate servitude. You didn't let us down, did you PH? Or do these inane posts you leave on this site really represent the extent of what you've done to ensure the commitment our service members made will never be taken for granted?
If the latter truly is the case, please don't bother replying to my comment; I'm not going to waste any more time on you if this is just your little way of making yourself feel better. If you truly are a pacifist, and you simply could never support violence, then I at least want to know what you've done--besides leaving shoddily crafted arguments on Milk and Cookies--to ensure our democracy isn't taken for granted.
Not every German was a Nazi. Many Germans, if not most, were ignorant about the concentration camps. If anything, the average German citizen was guilty of about as much as the average Californian was when we shipped Japanese Americans off to concentration camps. History doesn't damn the Third Reich because they invaded Poland; we curse them because they gassed millions of people. Most Germans felt that the onset of the blitzkrieg was a reclamation of what was taken from Germany after the first world war. Indeed, America warned France and England from forcing such severe reparations on Germany for the very reason that it might unite Germans against the rest of Europe. I could go on about that last paragraph of yours, but instead I'll just shake my head and laugh because you failed to take my advice. Way to prove Godwin's law, twice in one discussion.
And it is a little annoying to hear even sympathetic hearts bleed for the poor, ignorant wretches who are forced by their lot in life to serve in the military. I myself came from a family that could afford to send me to college, and I easily could have slept my way through state school. But I enlisted not because I was desperate, but because I wanted discipline, and because it was such an obvious way to give back to the country that has taken such good care of me. What's more, I was hardly a rarity, either. It's true that I've met some real block-heads in the Army, but I've also met some brilliant, well-to-do enlisted men and women who signed up because they simply felt like they should do their part, as well.
Ok, a lot of kids--and plenty of other essentially innocent people--have died in Iraq. But to blame the guy on the ground, rather than focus on the leadership like we ought to, is to exacerbate the problem, rather than solve it. It's that sort of attitude that allowed us to make a circus of the Abu Ghraib hearings while the leadership who truly dropped the ball in preventing that mess got away. And maybe a minority of service members are out to claim as many slaves for the afterlife as possible, but most soldiers and marines are like my friend who can't sleep because he sees that same Iraqi kid (that one who ran past his tank with some American Willy P burning a hole through his face) every time he closes his eyes. That is to say, most are just coping with what they're asked to do. Most are doing no more or less than taking care of the guy next to him or her. And I doubt that there are any more sociopaths running around wearing American uniforms than there are wearing suits and ties.
If we weren't "bent on cooperate servitude" then we wouldn't sign up in the first place? Can you back that up? Or did you once again pull some fantastic crap out of your ass? In fact, there are quite a few like myself, who enlisted despite the possibility of cooperate servitude, but I don't know anyone who signed up because of it. And we were also the ones that have enough faith in the American democracy to believe that people would do more than post smarmy comments on internet forums in order to protect us from such corporate servitude. You didn't let us down, did you PH? Or do these inane posts you leave on this site really represent the extent of what you've done to ensure the commitment our service members made will never be taken for granted?
If the latter truly is the case, please don't bother replying to my comment; I'm not going to waste any more time on you if this is just your little way of making yourself feel better. If you truly are a pacifist, and you simply could never support violence, then I at least want to know what you've done--besides leaving shoddily crafted arguments on Milk and Cookies--to ensure our democracy isn't taken for granted.
By: Oh-Deeh
Re: Vietnam Vets Throw Medals
Thank you for saying that, not so much because poonhound may have needed to be overmatched, but because you spoke to my own inner useless internet personality--the arrogant and profane young intellectual who has little grounding in the mundane, futile, and tragic details of human life. I do an OK job of reigning it in, but the tone of your response helped to remind me of how little I understand anything. Respect to you, Oh-Deeh. I'm going to remember this. The internet really is a place of significance, and I am glad that you defend it with dignity and candor against offensive trivialities like the arguments started here, because the internet is not just a detached exercise in passing, but rather it can be a genuine recorded human interaction. Peace.
By: boyblunders
