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SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
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You saw it first in 'SiCKO.' Now Sarah Palin has gone so far as to quote the LP, "Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine" during her closing comments at the vice presidential debates.
Oct 4, 2008 2:26 PM
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
I would fully back the government to offer healthcare to those whom the market won't accept as being 'worth a buck.' The State should offer a healthcare package or whatever you'd want to call it to everyone who wish it, and this shouldn't be subpar but actually fully covering the special needs of the recipient -- and be affordable. I say 'offer,' because I loathe forced healthcare. It's what seems to be the norm here in the Netherlands (and you should watch out for in America), where you have to pay big money for execrable government services. I'm in favor of treating people like fully responsible adults, who know how to save money wisely and all that.
Forced healthcare is bad. Take it from me that if America goes that way, it'll be in lockstep with the pharmaceutical industrial giants, who'll decide what's best for you -- and stuff you full with pills you'll slowly die from.
(The few times I had to go to the hospital, they nearly always gave me these medicines that I consider fit to put down an elephant with. Simple painkillers, but read the small print: this stuff increases the chance of you suffering a stroke, heart attack, and whatever. I kindly refuse the doctors' concerns. Don't trust that artificial crap; it's produced to make lots of money, which in turn is used, among other things, to suppress natural (better) medicines such as hemp. Making people healthy is not the concern of the pharmaceutical industry.)
Forced healthcare is bad. Take it from me that if America goes that way, it'll be in lockstep with the pharmaceutical industrial giants, who'll decide what's best for you -- and stuff you full with pills you'll slowly die from.
(The few times I had to go to the hospital, they nearly always gave me these medicines that I consider fit to put down an elephant with. Simple painkillers, but read the small print: this stuff increases the chance of you suffering a stroke, heart attack, and whatever. I kindly refuse the doctors' concerns. Don't trust that artificial crap; it's produced to make lots of money, which in turn is used, among other things, to suppress natural (better) medicines such as hemp. Making people healthy is not the concern of the pharmaceutical industry.)
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
""Forced healthcare is bad. ""
But forcing OTHER people to pay for your own health care is good? So much of today's health problems in industrialized countries are due to obesity, smoking, or drugs/alcohol. These are lifestly choices that have negative consequences, yet a universal system ("offered" or whatever) requires healthy individuals to pay for other people's mistakes.
Complain about pharmaceutical companies if you will, but the reason why there has been such a revolution in medicine (and other medical technologies besides pharma), is because there are private research firms that can make a profit in the American marketplace. If that goes, then the world's pharma reseach dries up due to lack of investment, and the whole world would have to rely on sclerotic, taxpayer funded university systems to create new cures.
The government would have to both distribute health care , AND fund all of the research into new cures.
Managed care sucks, but so does universal health care. pick your poison. I think privatized system wins out, because of the fast-tracking of new research, ethical issues, and the quality is better overall albeit less people may have immediate access.
But forcing OTHER people to pay for your own health care is good? So much of today's health problems in industrialized countries are due to obesity, smoking, or drugs/alcohol. These are lifestly choices that have negative consequences, yet a universal system ("offered" or whatever) requires healthy individuals to pay for other people's mistakes.
Complain about pharmaceutical companies if you will, but the reason why there has been such a revolution in medicine (and other medical technologies besides pharma), is because there are private research firms that can make a profit in the American marketplace. If that goes, then the world's pharma reseach dries up due to lack of investment, and the whole world would have to rely on sclerotic, taxpayer funded university systems to create new cures.
The government would have to both distribute health care , AND fund all of the research into new cures.
Managed care sucks, but so does universal health care. pick your poison. I think privatized system wins out, because of the fast-tracking of new research, ethical issues, and the quality is better overall albeit less people may have immediate access.
By: poonhound
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
"The government would have to both distribute health care , AND fund all of the research into new cures."
Sounds pretty much like what we have now in America, except instead of the government, it's a patchwork of private, for-profit financial services corporations. At least with the government, we supposedly get a thin measure of democratic control, and they can't claim a loophole in your contract means you're not covered. And don't kid yourself, your insurance company charges as much as the market will bear, irrespective of how much they're paying out in claims. If they save money it goes into profits, not into reducing your rates.
As for smoking and all that, healthy insured people pay for unhealthy insured people too. Throwing people off insurance due to obesity or a penchant for extreme sports may save an insurer money, but it costs everybody else, both in indigent care and a plain-old unpleasant society to live in. But if the government has to pay for Ronald McDonald's double-burger bypass, well, they're the government -- they can tax the shit out of junk food to pay for it.
Sounds pretty much like what we have now in America, except instead of the government, it's a patchwork of private, for-profit financial services corporations. At least with the government, we supposedly get a thin measure of democratic control, and they can't claim a loophole in your contract means you're not covered. And don't kid yourself, your insurance company charges as much as the market will bear, irrespective of how much they're paying out in claims. If they save money it goes into profits, not into reducing your rates.
As for smoking and all that, healthy insured people pay for unhealthy insured people too. Throwing people off insurance due to obesity or a penchant for extreme sports may save an insurer money, but it costs everybody else, both in indigent care and a plain-old unpleasant society to live in. But if the government has to pay for Ronald McDonald's double-burger bypass, well, they're the government -- they can tax the shit out of junk food to pay for it.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
They government can tax anything deemed to be a threat to public health. They can pass laws making everything potentially harmful to be illegal. This is an inevitability when the Burden of health care is placed upon the government, the entity which controls the police, military, prison system, ect. The government = force.
Think about it. It is a road to serfdom. We give too much power to the government when we concede our health care to them. They will make more and more decisions for us on behalf of public health. The government will control the food you eat, where you can live, what products you are allowed to have in your home, because an illness might burden the NHS. Its already happening in parts of Europe. The Fat police are coming.
Not to mention ethical issues regarding the encouragement of euthanasia and assisted suicide, eugenic abortions, ect..
At least with private insurance, you get to sign on the dotted line with a plan you agree with. You can control your own destiny with other choices. Competition creates efficiency, lowers prices, and end waiting lists.
Health insurance should be like car insurance. De-coupled from employment, and your premiums would reflect your lifestyle choices. Obese people or addicts would be the first to be helped because plans would exist specifically to cater to them by providing taylored preventitive care (like how children with learning disabilities benefit the most from a charter school system because there are entire schools that will teach to their specific needs).
Think about it. It is a road to serfdom. We give too much power to the government when we concede our health care to them. They will make more and more decisions for us on behalf of public health. The government will control the food you eat, where you can live, what products you are allowed to have in your home, because an illness might burden the NHS. Its already happening in parts of Europe. The Fat police are coming.
Not to mention ethical issues regarding the encouragement of euthanasia and assisted suicide, eugenic abortions, ect..
At least with private insurance, you get to sign on the dotted line with a plan you agree with. You can control your own destiny with other choices. Competition creates efficiency, lowers prices, and end waiting lists.
Health insurance should be like car insurance. De-coupled from employment, and your premiums would reflect your lifestyle choices. Obese people or addicts would be the first to be helped because plans would exist specifically to cater to them by providing taylored preventitive care (like how children with learning disabilities benefit the most from a charter school system because there are entire schools that will teach to their specific needs).
By: poonhound
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
As I'm sure you know, charter schools are part of the public education system. It's a case where government money pays for education, and new educational ideas can be tried out. There's no reason why we can't do smart things with health care too.
How many of us really do agree with the plan we sign on the dotted line? Not too many. We don't really have any choice on our insurance plans. There's a huge power imbalance. I need a doctor more than an insurance company needs me.
Corporations are much too powerful, and insurance companies contribute nothing to the economy. They don't build anything. They don't provide anything. All they do is push money in a circle.
How many of us really do agree with the plan we sign on the dotted line? Not too many. We don't really have any choice on our insurance plans. There's a huge power imbalance. I need a doctor more than an insurance company needs me.
Corporations are much too powerful, and insurance companies contribute nothing to the economy. They don't build anything. They don't provide anything. All they do is push money in a circle.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
That's actually not so. Insurance companies fund a lot of real estate and corporate bonds with their assets on behalf of policyholders. So in a real sense, insurers do provide to the economy.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Causing the ownership of stuff to shift around does not contribute to an economy; causing something of value to come into existence does.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
You missed the point entirely.
Without financing, that new strip mall doesn't get built. Insurers are far more heavy into commercial real estate ventures than banks or investment houses.
Without financing, that new strip mall doesn't get built. Insurers are far more heavy into commercial real estate ventures than banks or investment houses.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
You're kidding, right?
With more than 40 million Americans without insurance today, your solution is to make it so that employers don't provide access for people to get it. Did you forget that employers pay a very large portion of the premiums?
What about large employers providing a good cross-section of population and therefore a better method of spreading risk amongst a large number of people? With everyone having individual coverage (your analogy to the auto insurance plans), insurers would raise rates on you if you got a hangnail and/or refuse renewal.
Brilliant.
The United States spends per capita more on healthcare coverage than any other nation on this planet. The ranking of quality of care is 37th. The US is the only industrialized nation that does not have a National Healthcare System. And yet you oppose it in lieu of the Really Fucking Asinine Plan of everyone getting individual coverage. IF THEY CAN.
Like I said. Brilliant.
With more than 40 million Americans without insurance today, your solution is to make it so that employers don't provide access for people to get it. Did you forget that employers pay a very large portion of the premiums?
What about large employers providing a good cross-section of population and therefore a better method of spreading risk amongst a large number of people? With everyone having individual coverage (your analogy to the auto insurance plans), insurers would raise rates on you if you got a hangnail and/or refuse renewal.
Brilliant.
The United States spends per capita more on healthcare coverage than any other nation on this planet. The ranking of quality of care is 37th. The US is the only industrialized nation that does not have a National Healthcare System. And yet you oppose it in lieu of the Really Fucking Asinine Plan of everyone getting individual coverage. IF THEY CAN.
Like I said. Brilliant.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
"I think privatized system wins out, because of the fast-tracking of new research, ethical issues, and the quality is better overall albeit less people have access."
Fix'd.
Fix'd.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
What do you mean by forced health care? The Netherlands makes you get treatment you don't want? I hadn't heard of anything like that going on.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
I mean that as far as I know, you've got to pay here. What else would you expect in a country that makes a new rule every day, and where you always have to carry an identification pass?
And yeah, when the government is in bed with all sorts of corporations, you can bet the options are limited as to what care you can have. That seems to be the nature of the game: make a buck out of it. It must be profitable, which most of the time means cater to the masses.
So let the market take care of healthcare, but in my opinion it would be essential for the government to take care of those who fall by the wayside. That would indeed involve other people's taxes, but remember one thing: in a democracy, this happens with the consent of the people. If the people don't like it, vote to your heart's content on someone who closes his/her eyes to quite a few people in society. In my opinion, in the end it costs more if the government ignores problems.
And yeah, when the government is in bed with all sorts of corporations, you can bet the options are limited as to what care you can have. That seems to be the nature of the game: make a buck out of it. It must be profitable, which most of the time means cater to the masses.
So let the market take care of healthcare, but in my opinion it would be essential for the government to take care of those who fall by the wayside. That would indeed involve other people's taxes, but remember one thing: in a democracy, this happens with the consent of the people. If the people don't like it, vote to your heart's content on someone who closes his/her eyes to quite a few people in society. In my opinion, in the end it costs more if the government ignores problems.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Democracy: representing the wishes of the majority of the people.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
No, that's mob rule. Democracy is carrying out the wishes of the majority while protecting the rights of the minority.
By: maxpower1013
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Who decides what the rights of the minorities are, but the majority? Here in California, voters are likely to approve a new amendment to the state constitution making homosexual marriage illegal. (Homosexuals make up a minority, even in California.)
One can imagine a society of people who care more about other people's dignity than about their own bigotries. Even so, "mob rule" and "democracy" are the same thing.
One can imagine a society of people who care more about other people's dignity than about their own bigotries. Even so, "mob rule" and "democracy" are the same thing.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
It would really suck to have an expensive but curable form of cancer and DIE because i could afford the treatment. that is cruel and unusual punishment. What is being punished...poverty.
By: djintaal
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Haven't you pretty much always had to move where there was a lacking in your field? That's just good sense. You are the supply, and you need to find the demand.
By: Faffy
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
As a point brought up in that film, socialized medicine was bad according to the GOP but HMOs were good.
I guess it all depends on who is padding the politicians' pockets and with how much. Right Richard M. Nixon? Right Henry J. Kaiser?
I guess it all depends on who is padding the politicians' pockets and with how much. Right Richard M. Nixon? Right Henry J. Kaiser?
By: spam_vigilante
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Making healthcare available to all U.S. citizens is NOT socialized medicine or a step into socialism. Equating total healthcare *availability* to socialism is just a scare tactic to freak us all out and keep the same, broken healthcare system run by greedy insurance companies where everyone loses, other than those with incredibly expensive insurance.
Think of the wording used. Socialism, which makes us all think "communism", which has been brow-beaten into American culture as being purely evil for the last 75 years. I'm a capitalist, but that doesn't mean I don't believe my city should *not* have a state-funded police force. Why aren't the police and fire services berated as being "socialist" entities? Because it's absurd. They're state (or city) run, which is very, very different than being socialized.
A national healthcare plan is NOT socialized medicine. It's a plan to make healthcare *available* to those that can't afford it. It leaves all of the currnt for-profit mechanisms intact, leaves the pharma-tech industry intact and leaves hospitals and clinics to continue running their own finances. The only difference is a state subsidized insurance-like plan to cover healthcare costs. We're not talking about turning hospitals into fucking gulags here, and there is no domnio-effect as alluded to in Ron Reagan's bullshit record.
Think of the wording used. Socialism, which makes us all think "communism", which has been brow-beaten into American culture as being purely evil for the last 75 years. I'm a capitalist, but that doesn't mean I don't believe my city should *not* have a state-funded police force. Why aren't the police and fire services berated as being "socialist" entities? Because it's absurd. They're state (or city) run, which is very, very different than being socialized.
A national healthcare plan is NOT socialized medicine. It's a plan to make healthcare *available* to those that can't afford it. It leaves all of the currnt for-profit mechanisms intact, leaves the pharma-tech industry intact and leaves hospitals and clinics to continue running their own finances. The only difference is a state subsidized insurance-like plan to cover healthcare costs. We're not talking about turning hospitals into fucking gulags here, and there is no domnio-effect as alluded to in Ron Reagan's bullshit record.
By: decavolt
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
I'm sorry, but taking my tax dollars to pay for someone else's health care is every bit socialism. The reason it is socialism is because I have no choice in the matter. The recepient has a choice, but I still have to pay for it whether they choose to use it or not. When the Government uses its power to take money from me and give it to someone else in the form of free healthcare, that's socialism.
By: faxis2k
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
But I want to pay for someone else's health care. I want to pay for someone else's house fire to be extinguished.
What I don't want is to pad someone else's corporate profits in exchange for nothing of value.
What I don't want is to pad someone else's corporate profits in exchange for nothing of value.
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
And you don't think you're already paying for other people? Why do you think hospital bills are so high, and insurance plans cost so damn much? I hate to break it to you, but you are ALREADY paying for the uninsured.
By: decavolt
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Hypothetically, you depend on the people who's health insurance you don't want to pay. The more healthy they are, the more dependable economy you have. You have no choice but to depend on them. Their health is in your best interest.
Do you have anything else to say? Your standard soundbites are boring.
Do you have anything else to say? Your standard soundbites are boring.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Police, Fire, national defense, roads and bridges, are all institutions that the public shares. The government is a service that the people hire to maintain these institutions with rules established by representatives of the people.
Health care is personal, Our bodies and well being are our personal responsibility, not a public entity. Unless of course, you believe that the individual is merely a component of a public entity - which WOULD make you a communist. =P
Health care is personal, Our bodies and well being are our personal responsibility, not a public entity. Unless of course, you believe that the individual is merely a component of a public entity - which WOULD make you a communist. =P
By: poonhound
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
I don't see why a hospital can't also be an institution that the public shares. Yes, they treat individual bodies, but they also perform research and teaching which ultimately benefits all of us.
In any case, I think I detect special pleading here... I've never seen a fireman pull a "public entity" from a burning house... If your body is your own responsibility, why should the government rescue you, or save your personal property from a fire that might even have been your fault in the first place?
In any case, I think I detect special pleading here... I've never seen a fireman pull a "public entity" from a burning house... If your body is your own responsibility, why should the government rescue you, or save your personal property from a fire that might even have been your fault in the first place?
By: quisph
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Yeah, I don't see the distinction either.
Providing a road for me to use without charging me a toll every time I leave my house is preferable to having private corporations run the streets. Giving out free education to little kids is just good public policy. Why not health care too?
Providing a road for me to use without charging me a toll every time I leave my house is preferable to having private corporations run the streets. Giving out free education to little kids is just good public policy. Why not health care too?
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Sure, healthcare is personal. Until you catch bird flu from your office mate, meningitis from someone in your dorm or some nutjob puts a little ricin into the city resevoir. Do you think the government (CDC, FEMA and your city's community health board) should still stay the hell away from you when that happens?
It's arguments like yours that make me wonder if universal healthcare opponents have honestly thought about the subject at all... or if they just heard some pundit say the world "socialism", stopped listening and freaked the fuck out.
It's arguments like yours that make me wonder if universal healthcare opponents have honestly thought about the subject at all... or if they just heard some pundit say the world "socialism", stopped listening and freaked the fuck out.
By: decavolt
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Its also not so much about the money with me as it is the fact that the Government runs things badly. VERY badly. Fire Departments and Police Stations yes, are 'government' controlled. LOCAL government. A local government is much more accountable to its constituents than the Federal government. A 'National' Healthcare system would by definition be run by the Federal government. I don't want to have to wait in line to see a doctor, I don't want to have rules dictating what doctors I can and can't see. You think its bad with Insurance companies, the Federal Government is going to be at least 20x worse. I'd rather pay for good healthcare, than get Government Healthcare for free.
By: faxis2k
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Plus get a job, pay for some damn insurance, its not that expensive. If you don't make enough to buy insurance or aren't smart enough to find an employer that will provide it, chances are you qualify for medicare. Even if you don't, there's not an emergency room in the entire United States that will turn away a person for not having insurance. I know because I've been to the hospital with no insurance before.
By: faxis2k
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
You don't have to wait in line NOW to see a doctor? I have my doubts about that.
HMO's dictate, right now, which doctors you can see and most insurance plans are run by them. HMO doing it, government doing it... it's comparing potatoes to tubers. Same thing.
I have a job, run my own business and live comfortably - and I still can't afford health insurance. It IS that expensive.
And no, an emergency room won't turn you away. They can't by law. But they will most certainly bill you for every last second of it, insurance or not, and they will dictate what sort of care you get based on whether or not you are insured. It's the first thing they ask for in triage once they ask if you're able to talk.
HMO's dictate, right now, which doctors you can see and most insurance plans are run by them. HMO doing it, government doing it... it's comparing potatoes to tubers. Same thing.
I have a job, run my own business and live comfortably - and I still can't afford health insurance. It IS that expensive.
And no, an emergency room won't turn you away. They can't by law. But they will most certainly bill you for every last second of it, insurance or not, and they will dictate what sort of care you get based on whether or not you are insured. It's the first thing they ask for in triage once they ask if you're able to talk.
By: decavolt
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
Thanks for posting. I refrain from citing personal experiences, but suffice it to say, they would have emphasized your point. I'm more than willing to share details, I just feel like most would ignore them. Feel free to PM for the nitty gritty.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
One other minor point everyone seems to forget on this subject:
No one will *force* you to use any national health plant. It's not as though every doctor, nurse and EMT will instantly become government employees. You'll still be totally free to get your own health plan, or use one provided by your employer and get all the same shit you already have right now.
No one will *force* you to use any national health plant. It's not as though every doctor, nurse and EMT will instantly become government employees. You'll still be totally free to get your own health plan, or use one provided by your employer and get all the same shit you already have right now.
By: decavolt
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
I wish I could use the national health care plant. Such a plant should not be withheld from the public.
By: i8ursandwich
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
You really don't understand either of the proposed health care plans, do you?
By: i8ursandwich
Re: SiCKO: Ronald Reagan On the Evils of Socialized Medicine
In HMOs, patients often lie to their doctors, since the doctor's doing double-duty as an informant for the insurance company. For example, any HMO patient with any sense would never ask their doctor for help quitting smoking, because this would flag the insurance company to raise the rates. On the other hand, governments tax tobacco. They don't have to discover whether you're a heavy smoker, a light smoker, or a non-smoker. They just tax every cigarette within reach.
A system which causes patients to be less than straight with their doctors is less than optimal.
A system which causes patients to be less than straight with their doctors is less than optimal.
