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Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
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A 5-minute-explanation of the roots of the middle-east conflict.
A short film by Axel Rudolph, his degree project at Ravensburg College.
A short film by Axel Rudolph, his degree project at Ravensburg College.
Sep 18, 2008 11:53 AM
Re: Knowledge
Mmm ... I do definitely not agree with the last couple of sentences. Still *****
Re: Knowledge
The last couple (two) sentences are "blood shed strenghening the hatred" obstructing peace and "this is why a resolution to this conflict has been so difficult"?
Do you also not agree with the part about "the military losses" wearing down the arab (palestinian) side and them resorting to terror/suicide tactics? Or the part about the israeli answer of "military assaults on the arab occupied areas"? Or the part about the "new settlements"? Or the "viscious circle of violence" ensuing? Or is it just "the blood shed strenghening the hatred" obstructing peace? Or that "this is why a resolution to this conflict has been so difficult?
I'm asking because "the bloodshed streenghtening the hatred" and making a resolution "so difficult" seem on point.
Do you also not agree with the part about "the military losses" wearing down the arab (palestinian) side and them resorting to terror/suicide tactics? Or the part about the israeli answer of "military assaults on the arab occupied areas"? Or the part about the "new settlements"? Or the "viscious circle of violence" ensuing? Or is it just "the blood shed strenghening the hatred" obstructing peace? Or that "this is why a resolution to this conflict has been so difficult?
I'm asking because "the bloodshed streenghtening the hatred" and making a resolution "so difficult" seem on point.
By: DonGucciwearin
Re: Knowledge
Oh, sure; from one point of view they are 'on point,' as you say. However, it felt to me as though the narrator pointed an accusing finger to the Palestinians. (Sorry for all the points.) Apparently, he thinks it's their fault that a solution agreeable to both parties involved hasn't been found yet.
It's my opinion that the Palestinians have been driven to blowing themselves up, on the one hand by the unyielding (and ever expanding) Israeli forces, and on the other hand by Palestinian leadership. There are, of course, plenty of Israeli people fully hoping for a good solution; but what I gather is that the Israeli government, backed by America and other western countries, strives for a 'final solution,' disguised of course under a cloak of propaganda. Zionist forces are only interested in what they want, which is, among others, the destruction of the Palestinians.
It's the Israelis who are the oppressors. If you, as a Palestinian, have to undergo daily humiliation, and are driven off your land by settlers, who also kill your family, well you may very well be pissed off and decide on some action. The situation is somewhat similar to what Americans did to the natives. But oh well, nobody really talks about that now anymore: America is good. We'll see the same thing happening in the Middle East, where a few hundred years from now there will rise western cities out of the ground like mushrooms. For the indigenous people it will be adapt or die. Then again, maybe the western civilization can't keep up and it will be the Chinese, Indians (how ironic), and other eastern people who will take over. The latter wouldn't surprise me at all.
It's my opinion that the Palestinians have been driven to blowing themselves up, on the one hand by the unyielding (and ever expanding) Israeli forces, and on the other hand by Palestinian leadership. There are, of course, plenty of Israeli people fully hoping for a good solution; but what I gather is that the Israeli government, backed by America and other western countries, strives for a 'final solution,' disguised of course under a cloak of propaganda. Zionist forces are only interested in what they want, which is, among others, the destruction of the Palestinians.
It's the Israelis who are the oppressors. If you, as a Palestinian, have to undergo daily humiliation, and are driven off your land by settlers, who also kill your family, well you may very well be pissed off and decide on some action. The situation is somewhat similar to what Americans did to the natives. But oh well, nobody really talks about that now anymore: America is good. We'll see the same thing happening in the Middle East, where a few hundred years from now there will rise western cities out of the ground like mushrooms. For the indigenous people it will be adapt or die. Then again, maybe the western civilization can't keep up and it will be the Chinese, Indians (how ironic), and other eastern people who will take over. The latter wouldn't surprise me at all.
Re: Knowledge
"It's my opinion that the Palestinians have been driven to blowing themselves up." I agree with your view, but I do think that's what the narrator was driving at in this piece. I think he would agree with you.
By: EmanResu
Re: Knowledge
You're probably right. It was only the last two sentences in the video that struck me as odd; I thought the rest was excellent, so there's a fair chance that I misinterpreted the last couple of sentences.
Re: Knowledge
Because Israelis are now considered rich, white people, and Palestinians are poor brown people, we automatically assume that the Jews must be the oppressors. Never mind that in 1967 at the peak of counter-culture in the U.S. and Europe, supporting Israel against the hegemonic, soviet-fuelled Arab military force was the most progressive of causes. At that time, the Jews were considered the indigenous people under threat of annihilation by the stronger Arab forces.
The ideology has not changed since then. When Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, or any other "resistance" group talks about "occupation" they do not mean the west bank. They mean all of it, from the river to the sea. Especially those areas considered soverign Israel that had an unbroken Jewish majority for centuries.
The terrorists have carried on the legacy of the pan-arab alliance, which carried on the legacy of the Ottoman turks, the fatamid Caliphs and even Omar ibn Kattab himself 1400 years ago.
The Koran says: "Wage war against the Jews until they defeated, humiliated and pay extortion money in utter subjugation."
If the Palestinians insist on supporting terrorism to destroy all of Israel proper, and plot and plan those attacks from the west bank, then Israel has every right to occupy that territory. What you need to ask yourself is do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Your answer should determine which side you are on.
The ideology has not changed since then. When Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, or any other "resistance" group talks about "occupation" they do not mean the west bank. They mean all of it, from the river to the sea. Especially those areas considered soverign Israel that had an unbroken Jewish majority for centuries.
The terrorists have carried on the legacy of the pan-arab alliance, which carried on the legacy of the Ottoman turks, the fatamid Caliphs and even Omar ibn Kattab himself 1400 years ago.
The Koran says: "Wage war against the Jews until they defeated, humiliated and pay extortion money in utter subjugation."
If the Palestinians insist on supporting terrorism to destroy all of Israel proper, and plot and plan those attacks from the west bank, then Israel has every right to occupy that territory. What you need to ask yourself is do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Your answer should determine which side you are on.
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge
Please cite the verse that you have fabricated:
"The Koran says: "Wage war against the Jews until they defeated, humiliated and pay extortion money in utter subjugation.""
I know, I am tilting at windmills in my expecting you to respond to any rational request.
"The Koran says: "Wage war against the Jews until they defeated, humiliated and pay extortion money in utter subjugation.""
I know, I am tilting at windmills in my expecting you to respond to any rational request.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Knowledge
Koran chapter 9 verse 29. The English translation will refer to "People of the Book" or "those who have been given the scriptures." This is a common reference to Jews throughout Islamic theology and scripture, it is not diputed although it is also a reference to christians in some circumstances.
Also, Jizya is the poll tax, sort of like a shop keeper giving protection money to the mob boss.
Google, "The Pact of Omar" to learn more about the practice (Omar being Omar ibn Kattab, the 2nd Caliph, Mohammad's most trusted apprentice who conquered Jerusalem in 638 AD after a 4 month siege.)
PWND
Also, Jizya is the poll tax, sort of like a shop keeper giving protection money to the mob boss.
Google, "The Pact of Omar" to learn more about the practice (Omar being Omar ibn Kattab, the 2nd Caliph, Mohammad's most trusted apprentice who conquered Jerusalem in 638 AD after a 4 month siege.)
PWND
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge
Pretty pleased with yourself?
Alternate interpretation:
And within the Islamic polity, as envisioned by the Koran in Chapter 9, Verse 29, the People of the Book are required to pay a special poll tax and to adopt a low social profile in return for the protection, "dhimmah," of the Muslims, hence the adjective "dhimmi," or "one under protection," as applied to Christians or Jews.
(http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM)
PWNED, my ass. How does this prove your point?
Alternate interpretation:
And within the Islamic polity, as envisioned by the Koran in Chapter 9, Verse 29, the People of the Book are required to pay a special poll tax and to adopt a low social profile in return for the protection, "dhimmah," of the Muslims, hence the adjective "dhimmi," or "one under protection," as applied to Christians or Jews.
(http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/ZKORAN.HTM)
PWNED, my ass. How does this prove your point?
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Knowledge
Actually, I think the Israelis are considered (by some) to be the oppressors in the occupied territories because they're occupying the occupied territories. Building an annexation wall through the West Bank, illegal settlements linked by Jewish-only roads and checkpoints, and rifle-totin' Orthodox rednecks controlling the water supplies and bulldozing other people's houses and olive trees might be interpreted as a bit oppressive, with or without white skin.
Maybe it's time for a modern, secular democracy instead of a fancy new anti-Muslim Jewish theocracy.
Maybe it's time for a modern, secular democracy instead of a fancy new anti-Muslim Jewish theocracy.
Re: Knowledge
Again, an occupation is necessary, although settlement building is a legitamate grievance. However, consider that Israel has dismantled all settlements from Gaza, and most of those rednecks from remote regions in the west bank. The wall attempts to keep people out, it is not a prison.
Over 90% of Israeli Arabs prefer to be citizens of Israel than of a future Palestinian state. There are over 1 million of them, why are there no terrorist attacks coming from those Arabs with complete access to all of Israel proper?
There is no impetus for racial or religious hatred coming from the Israeli government. They persecute it. Those Jews who got caught trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock 10 years ago are still in prison today.
Israel has accepted the horrible, racist demand that a future Palestinian state must be ethnically cleansed of jews, and no Jewish immigrants. Imagine if Israel demanded all of its Arab population to leave?
Over 90% of Israeli Arabs prefer to be citizens of Israel than of a future Palestinian state. There are over 1 million of them, why are there no terrorist attacks coming from those Arabs with complete access to all of Israel proper?
There is no impetus for racial or religious hatred coming from the Israeli government. They persecute it. Those Jews who got caught trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock 10 years ago are still in prison today.
Israel has accepted the horrible, racist demand that a future Palestinian state must be ethnically cleansed of jews, and no Jewish immigrants. Imagine if Israel demanded all of its Arab population to leave?
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge
Arabs WERE asked to leave Israel. At gunpoint.
Look, I am of Jewish heritage (though an atheist for the past 30+ years). I do not reject that which I was taught as a young sprout so much as I am a realist. Having spent a fair amount of time talking with people of Syrian and Lebanese descent, I have a far different perspective than most of my clan.
I prefer to think of myself as having an open mind to these perplexing difficulties. The problem is, most do not have the same attitude.
Look, I am of Jewish heritage (though an atheist for the past 30+ years). I do not reject that which I was taught as a young sprout so much as I am a realist. Having spent a fair amount of time talking with people of Syrian and Lebanese descent, I have a far different perspective than most of my clan.
I prefer to think of myself as having an open mind to these perplexing difficulties. The problem is, most do not have the same attitude.
By: spam_vigilante
Re: Knowledge
If I want to build a security fence around my house, it's customary to put it on my side of the property line, not through my neighbor's driveway, around their car, through the bathroom and kitchen around the icebox and across their front door.
They'd have a legitimate complaint, even if my neighbors are really, really, nasty.
They'd have a legitimate complaint, even if my neighbors are really, really, nasty.
Re: Knowledge
"When Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, or any other... "
Re-check Fatah, They recognized Israel in 1993.
Re-check Fatah, They recognized Israel in 1993.
By: cheezsteak
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
Yes it was only 5 minutes, but htere were a few things they left out.:
1) The majority of residents living in areas now known as Israel were Jewish at least as far back as the 19th century. In 1865, for example, the Jews of Jerusalem outnumbered Arabs 2:1.
2)The Muslim Brotherhood (the forefathers of Hamas, Al qaeda and Fatah) was founded in the 1920's in order to work towards the elimination of Jewry in the levant for religious reasons
3)There were more Jewish refugees expelled from Arab lands, than Arabs expelled from Israel after independence.
4) The Pan-Arab Alliance, a coalition of 14 Arab nations mobilized a huge military force poised to wipe Israel off the map in 1967, Israel responded, and the majority of Arab refugees from that war were evacuated by Egypt and Syria in order to clear the battlefield for what they thought was to be an easy victory.
1) The majority of residents living in areas now known as Israel were Jewish at least as far back as the 19th century. In 1865, for example, the Jews of Jerusalem outnumbered Arabs 2:1.
2)The Muslim Brotherhood (the forefathers of Hamas, Al qaeda and Fatah) was founded in the 1920's in order to work towards the elimination of Jewry in the levant for religious reasons
3)There were more Jewish refugees expelled from Arab lands, than Arabs expelled from Israel after independence.
4) The Pan-Arab Alliance, a coalition of 14 Arab nations mobilized a huge military force poised to wipe Israel off the map in 1967, Israel responded, and the majority of Arab refugees from that war were evacuated by Egypt and Syria in order to clear the battlefield for what they thought was to be an easy victory.
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
It's a pity it wasn't longer, then. It did seem like the filmmakers were trying to make an unbiased summary (although I admit it's a little weird to learn about the history of modern Israel from a German!).
I also thought the animation was great. It was abstract, but really helped to understand the subject matter.
Poonhound, is there an online documentary or history you recommend as being more complete? Something relatively simple, as this was, and with a decent attempt to be unbiased?
I ask seriously, because it's a difficult subject to understand. Simple histories are usually heavily biased in one way or another, and complex ones are... too damn complex to see the forest for the trees, because the story of modern Israel *is* quite complex. I'm still trying to put the pieces together...
I also thought the animation was great. It was abstract, but really helped to understand the subject matter.
Poonhound, is there an online documentary or history you recommend as being more complete? Something relatively simple, as this was, and with a decent attempt to be unbiased?
I ask seriously, because it's a difficult subject to understand. Simple histories are usually heavily biased in one way or another, and complex ones are... too damn complex to see the forest for the trees, because the story of modern Israel *is* quite complex. I'm still trying to put the pieces together...
By: StrangeAttractor
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
You will never find an unbiased anything on this issue. Just do your own fact checking as best you can.
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
Ironically, it was the Irgun(militant Zionist group) that started wide scale terrorism in the area when they put a bomb in the "King David Hotel", killing over 100 people(including civilians)arguing that it was a military objective. Talk a about something blowing up in your face, enter 60 years later and they are still suffering the indirect consequences of the event(that is, putting a violent solution before a peaceful accord). Just so I clarify, I in no way support the palestinian terrorist, and I am fully aware that Israel is the only democracy in that whole barbaric area, but I also don't support the Likud policies of extermination.
By: peninsula_baja
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
Ya, 60 years of violence between the British and Israelis. when will it ever end?
The Likud party isn't very good at extermination apparently, considering that the Palestinian Arab population has quintupled over the past 40-50 years, And Israel maintains an Arab minority at 25% of its total population, with complete property and voting rights.
The Likud party isn't very good at extermination apparently, considering that the Palestinian Arab population has quintupled over the past 40-50 years, And Israel maintains an Arab minority at 25% of its total population, with complete property and voting rights.
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
60 years of violence between British and Israelis? Maybe you're sarcastically stating that the King David Hotel bombing was unrelated to the Palestine-Israel conflict. Just an observation, I am aware that this is a hot-button topic, I'm not trying to flame anyone.
However, I think the GP was trying to state that "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword", behavior on both sides has been deplorable throughout the decades, yet the Palestines learned a tactic or two from Likud's precursor organization.
I seem to remember the Labor Party trying to reach an accord in the summer of 2000, supposedly a huge number of PLO demands were agreed upon, when suddenly, swiftly and totally out of the blue, the region spiraled out of control. My take on things is that a few people on both sides, be it through fanaticism, greed or both, are keenly interested in keeping the region in chaos. Wasn't Arafat one of the world's richest men when he died?
And who suffers in the end? The general population, either brutalized, living in a state of fear, or brainwashed, living in a state of indoctrination, sucked into a conflict not created by them.
In Third World conditions such as in Palestine, little education and no birth control results in most women having six to ten children, even as half of them may die of bullshit diseases like cholera or the like (which is to say, perfectly treatable), or in acts of violence before reaching adulthood, only to repeat the cycle all over again. The population explosion is a manifestation of misery, not of perseverance.
The Palestine situation, both sides of the conflict, is yet another vivid historical example of humanity at its' execrable worst, a lesson for the future: "This is how it was when we were barbarians". That is, I choose to have an optimistic view of the future, although it's not going to happen in my lifetime.
However, I think the GP was trying to state that "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword", behavior on both sides has been deplorable throughout the decades, yet the Palestines learned a tactic or two from Likud's precursor organization.
I seem to remember the Labor Party trying to reach an accord in the summer of 2000, supposedly a huge number of PLO demands were agreed upon, when suddenly, swiftly and totally out of the blue, the region spiraled out of control. My take on things is that a few people on both sides, be it through fanaticism, greed or both, are keenly interested in keeping the region in chaos. Wasn't Arafat one of the world's richest men when he died?
And who suffers in the end? The general population, either brutalized, living in a state of fear, or brainwashed, living in a state of indoctrination, sucked into a conflict not created by them.
In Third World conditions such as in Palestine, little education and no birth control results in most women having six to ten children, even as half of them may die of bullshit diseases like cholera or the like (which is to say, perfectly treatable), or in acts of violence before reaching adulthood, only to repeat the cycle all over again. The population explosion is a manifestation of misery, not of perseverance.
The Palestine situation, both sides of the conflict, is yet another vivid historical example of humanity at its' execrable worst, a lesson for the future: "This is how it was when we were barbarians". That is, I choose to have an optimistic view of the future, although it's not going to happen in my lifetime.
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
Palestinian children are some of the most educated in the world. The problem is, that their education is that of Islamic fundamentalism and Jew hatred. There is no desire for peace coming from Palestine because they will not accept a Jewish nation as their neighbor.
An ocupation is necessary because the Palestinian authorities do not abide by their moral obligation to reign in anti-Israel terrorists, in fact, they are the terrorists.
An Israeli once told me that they could only wish that the occupation of Palestine went as well as the american occupation of Iraq. How could that be? He said because he saw hundreds of thousands of Iraqi security forces fighting side-by-side with Americans against Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. And now that the Iraqi government is stable and responsible, Americans are drawing down forces there. Amazing when you think about it.
An ocupation is necessary because the Palestinian authorities do not abide by their moral obligation to reign in anti-Israel terrorists, in fact, they are the terrorists.
An Israeli once told me that they could only wish that the occupation of Palestine went as well as the american occupation of Iraq. How could that be? He said because he saw hundreds of thousands of Iraqi security forces fighting side-by-side with Americans against Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. And now that the Iraqi government is stable and responsible, Americans are drawing down forces there. Amazing when you think about it.
By: poonhound
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
Oops, my mistake, when I said "education" I meant to say "sex education", and the lack of it can be filed under "indoctrination", which is to say, memorize scripture (pick your favorite text), a woman's place is in the kitchen while incubating proud masculine boys, etc, you know the drill.
Public education must be secular. Church and state must be separated. Why are these fantastic, gigantic concepts losing ground in our lifetime?
Anyway, I digress, back to the Holy Land. One side suicide bombs buses, weddings and markets, the other shoots missiles into residential areas. Never mind who's right or wrong or both, it's still a vicious cycle. Back in the mid-1980s, a Mexican comedian (Chis Chas, for the footnoters) did a bit he called News From The Year 2000: "Kasparov and Churnokov, for the twentieth time, tie in a chess match (it rhymes in Spanish). Arabs and Israelis begin round of conversations, cannot agree, begin round of beating each other to a pulp". A sarcastic joke became accurate prophecy, a tragic situation reached absurd, cartoonish proportions. Is there not a single sane fucking adult in the area? No, because there's deep, conflicting religious conviction on both sides.
As for Iraq, we do know that the US Government is paying tons of money to both indigenous security forces and former enemy insurgents for their allegiance, so either they keep buying relative peace or the kettle's gonna whistle again. I do not know if such an initiative has been attempted between the Israeli government and the Palestine people, but no country can keep bribing for peace indefinitely.
Excuse me while I put my tinfoil hat on: I wonder if the Bush government is paying for peace in Iraq during an election year, in which Democrats threaten to gain full control of the Executive and Legislative branches.
OK, that's enough, I have a cold and my head hurts. But thoughtful and polite discussion really helps to pass the time!
Public education must be secular. Church and state must be separated. Why are these fantastic, gigantic concepts losing ground in our lifetime?
Anyway, I digress, back to the Holy Land. One side suicide bombs buses, weddings and markets, the other shoots missiles into residential areas. Never mind who's right or wrong or both, it's still a vicious cycle. Back in the mid-1980s, a Mexican comedian (Chis Chas, for the footnoters) did a bit he called News From The Year 2000: "Kasparov and Churnokov, for the twentieth time, tie in a chess match (it rhymes in Spanish). Arabs and Israelis begin round of conversations, cannot agree, begin round of beating each other to a pulp". A sarcastic joke became accurate prophecy, a tragic situation reached absurd, cartoonish proportions. Is there not a single sane fucking adult in the area? No, because there's deep, conflicting religious conviction on both sides.
As for Iraq, we do know that the US Government is paying tons of money to both indigenous security forces and former enemy insurgents for their allegiance, so either they keep buying relative peace or the kettle's gonna whistle again. I do not know if such an initiative has been attempted between the Israeli government and the Palestine people, but no country can keep bribing for peace indefinitely.
Excuse me while I put my tinfoil hat on: I wonder if the Bush government is paying for peace in Iraq during an election year, in which Democrats threaten to gain full control of the Executive and Legislative branches.
OK, that's enough, I have a cold and my head hurts. But thoughtful and polite discussion really helps to pass the time!
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
I don't have anything to add about the video itself (except the visual style was great and the concepts well described), but I'd like to note the exceptional maturity level of the comments here. Honest queries and meaningful discussion. That's why I like M&C over Ebaums or ToxicJunction any day.
By: Unloved
Re: Knowledge: The Middle East Conflict
Shhh, keep your voice down, don't let any Digg or Slashdot trolls hear you! :P
