Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment

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Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Rep. Dennis Kucinich's opening statements during the House Judiciary Committee hearing on the constitutional limits of executive power.
Jul 28, 2008 8:38 AM
Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
I've voted for a few Republican US Presidents. I've been calling this clown out for more than eight years now.

But those on the right, especially those morons who voted for Dummy-ya twice, need to take a good look at their party and what they stand for.

Blindly supporting someone like this idjit is nothing short of reprehensible.
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
I didn't vote him in. And I was an idiot and voted to keep him in. May God have mercy upon my soul!
By: Makatsuta
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Accountability, eh?

So... we have Mr. Kucinich here absolving himself from his own responsibility to have made informed and reasoned decisions. He was misled. He suggests that he and his buddies would have acted differently way back when if they had only known what the real story was.

For any member of Congress that had voted to allow and allocate resources for the Executive to invade, yet now takes the position that they would have voted differently if they had known the truth; there seems to me only two plausible pleas such a member could take.

The first is a position of incompetence. The shifty eyed nonsense that Cheney's gang put forward as a justification for invasion was as full of holes then as it is now. For one to claim that they were misled and outwitted by George W. Bush paints a very sad self-portrait. If you are so lacking in intelligence, Mr. Kucinich, you really need to recuse yourself from representative democracy altogether. If you truly believed the story way back then, then you and yours better take responsibility for your gullibility and your lack of diligence. You are a fool. All of you. Your collective ignorance does not excuse your individual ignorance.

Impeach the president? Dissolve Congress while you're at it because each Member of Congress that supported those resolutions is as culpable for the consequences.

Because the only other alternative to being ignorant of the reasons for war, was that you were cognizant of them... which would make you a liar now and an accomplice then.

So which is it, Mr. Dennis Accountability Kucinich? Were you incompetent or were you an accomplice?

Are you ignorant or are you dishonest?

By: spirot
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
You seem a bit confused there, Spirot.

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2002&rollnumber=455

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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Actually, spirot has served himself up as a perfect example of the current crew of corporate neocon automatons. They all do the exact same thing.

- Instead of focusing on the issue, he resorts to histrionics and shows himself to be overly emotional.

- He uses this method to attack someone else for doing exactly what his leaders have done on a larger scale.

- But hold on... :) He's actually completely 180 degrees wrong. Just like the neocons are famous for.

- spirot won't come back and say, yes, he was wrong and take accountability. That would require him to review his own belief system.

- So by not taking accountability, he'll instead put his head down and keep being wrong. Again and again.

Rinse & Repeat.

Thanks for being another great example, dude.
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
lol pwnd

k thnx bai
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Haha, awesome! That was some great demonstration, sir.
By: NEU-NEU
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
All that you've done is point out that Kucinich made a mistake. Would you rather that he not make himself "culpable," as George Bush has, and let a grave illegal tragedy go unpunished and unaccounted for? You're thinking about this the wrong way, because Kucinich should not be denied the the ability to right his wrongs due to the fact that he did those wrongs. That's circular and dumb.
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Perhaps I should be more explicit.

1. Go to this web page.

http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2002&rollnumber=455

2. Note that it documents the final results for Congressional vote on the 2002 HV RES 114 bill "To Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq"

3. Search for Kucinich's name.

4. Note that he is listed in the 'nays' section. ('Nay' is a fancy word for 'no'.)

5. Note that Kucinich was among the 133 votes against the resolution authorizing Bush to order U.S. troops into Iraq at his discretion.

6. Note that Kucinich's name does not appear in the 'yeas' section. ('Yea' is a fancy word for 'yes'.)

7. Conclude that Kucinich never supported Bush's Iraq invasion.

All Spirot has done is point out how monumentally uninformed he or she is. That and caused a few people to erroneously assume Kucinich supported Bush's war in 2002.

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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
You pwnd him, dude. Like... knowing what the fuck your talking about and having them crazy ass facts to support your points FOR THE WIN! l337 PWNAGE!

(Yes. I will never ever type like a twelve year old latchkey kid with his first beer and an internet connection, ever again. Just seemed to fit)
By: EViLMinD
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Um, spirot? Gonna take accountability for being completely wrong? Want to be the first neocon ever to earn some respect?

Oh, spiroooo... Anyone? Bueller? (hmm...that's subtly ironic :)

<crickets chirping>

Yeah. That's pretty much what we thought.
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Mmm ... I was about to make a comment like yours. (Damn, I like the crickets chirping.) Look, if spirot returns and says "Sorry, I was wrong," he'd climb the ladder of humanity two rungs, three, more? If not, well ... maybe next time.
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
Spirot is a neocon? Wow. What's the evidence for that spurious and completely inaccurate charge? Just because I suggest that the donkey is full of shit, doesn't make me an elephant, man. Being a neocon would require me to be partisan, which I am not. I hold the whole of the system in contempt regardless of what color the necktie is.

Clearly I was wrong about Kucinich (and others) on the issue of this particular vote. Thanks for the correction. I misunderstood Kucinich's intent and the context for his comments. (I thank loqi for eloquently providing clarity to what was obviously fuzzy for me.)

I was projecting a generalized frustration on to the wrong target. I mistook Kucinich for one of the legions of people who seek now to absolve their culpability with the excuse that they were misled then. My rant was launched from Kucinich's comment:

"Many members of Congress relied on these representations from the White House to inform their decision to support the legislation that authorized the use of force against Iraq. We all know present and former colleagues that have said that if they knew then what they knew now they would not have voted to permit an attack upon Iraq".

It is obviously difficult for me to make the case for a greater intellectual rigor when I was clearly lacking on this point with regards to my impression of what Kucinich was saying... but the question to all those that claim to have been misled is: "Were you misled because you were ignorant or could you see the truth but chose to support the lie?"

I have no patience for anybody that claimed to have been misled by the smirking chimp. The lies were clear at the time. No hindsight was necessary in order to identify the imperialist occupation agenda that was behind the invasion of Iraq. There were plenty of little boys pointing out that the emperor wore no clothes but unlike in the H. C. Andersen story, the majority chose not to heed what was obvious.

If Kucinich was the little boy, then I applaud him, and I amend my question to direct it not at Kucinich but at the Members of Congress he refers to in the above quote. I direct the question also to every journalist (or those posing as journalists), every Senator, every member of the armed forces, and to every voting citizen that claim to have been misled.

Kucinich's point is to "hold accountable those who misled this nation" and the action in question is to impeach the smirking chimp. I assume that he would not expect that action alone to solve the accountability question. The Executive and its cabal are corrupt. That's obvious.

So is Congress.

So is the Senate.

So is the Judiciary.

So is the Military.

So is the Fourth Estate.

The President did not act alone. That he lied is the thin edge of the wedge. To right this wrong merely by scapegoating Bush is illusory. What is more troubling to me is the masses' collaboration with the lie; what is most frustrating is the disingenuous complaint of "we were misled". He led those that followed exactly where they wanted to go.

By: spirot
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Re: Dennis Kucinich: Hearings on Impeachment
I share your frustration with the extent of the rot, Spirot. But U.S. political crises are often corrected in dirty ways. And one purpose of impeachment is to make a public record of a violation.

Strange as it may seem, most U.S. congressional representatives do not have Top Secret security clearances. The President, Vice President, and various Executive Branch appointees get full access, but ordinary legislators have to formally apply, meet stringent criteria, and wait months to years for approval. A few months after 9-11 there were none too many security clearances handed out, either.

In the leadup to the Iraq war, Bush and Cheney would often visit CIA headquarters and press for answers they wanted to hear. Previously, it was considered quite inappropriate for a president or vice president to visit CIA, because of the potential for political influence. At the time, there was robust debate inside CIA over some of the issues that the Bush crew misrepresented as settled. And in some cases, there was a preponderance of opinion in exactly the opposite direction of what was presented by Bush.

The Bush-Cheney claims were totally full of holes, yes. But those holes were filled in with something along the lines of, "I have a top-secret clearance and you don't. I've seen tons of evidence I can't tell you about. Trust me." There was no reason not to trust those claims unless you were already inclined to be suspicious of those guys.

There are now a number of legislators who voted in favor of giving Bush his war who are really steamed. They're not all being disingenuous. Some of them are pretending to be shocked, utterly shocked, that a president would tell a fib. Others really did believe him. Congress really doesn't get much more information than the rest of us read in the newspapers. If you were suspicious of Bush in 2002, welcome to the club, we were in the minority. He was riding the post-911 wave of fear and obedience. But even without that free ride, people assume a President is telling the truth unless they have specific reason not to.

His presidency is now recognized as a failure, his approval ratings are in the toilet, everyone now knows he lied, and all his friends have jumped ship. He's very vulnerable. Kucinich is acting without the blessing of the Democratic party. It's not yet clear though, whether the Democratic party has calculated an electoral advantage to pursuing this or to ignoring this. Pelosi seems to have softened slightly in her opposition to impeachment. We shall see.

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